69 comments on “Depersonalization vs Enlightenment”
How odd. I came across this the other day and then couldn’t find it again (amongst the countless Shinzen Young videos on Youtube). And now here it is again here. Thanks.
This is wrong. I have experienced dp/dr since the age of 7. I have also expereinced many wonderful spiritual events during my life. And I also have experienced a kundalini awakening. Dp/dr is not scary once surrendered to and understood that it is a quick thrust into non-ego states which force one to surrender and experience a higher state of being. Not all surrender to this and try to latch on to ego-mind. Obvisouly psychology considers it a disorder because they do not see beyond the veils of illusion. I expereinced dp/dr at the age of 7 when i was looking in the mirror and asked myself ‘ who am i?’ this has happened to many others. It is a trigger to these dp/dr states.
Oh and did you know that the mind SHUTTS DOWN during these states? Why?.. because it is an ego-less state. There is no ‘evil twin’ to enlightenment. The only evil twin are those are are addicted to logic.
How do you cope with DP/DR now – I mean, since you “learned” to surrender to it, did the void of it transform, or merely become latent? I am experiencing DP/DR and have done so for a year. I too have had nice experienciences with meditation, before, but not since. It is difficult to find hollistic information about, because most of it is confounded by mistakes of rebirth experiences. Reading “Feeling unreal” gives a nice overview, but from a fairly western psychology point of view. Any directions would be much appreciated..
since I have been meditating more frequently.. and since i had a strong spiritual experince during meditation.. the dp is actualy not there… or i should say, not the same way it was. It use to be scary to feel dp… or scary when i contemplated ‘the self’ too much.. now, it doesn’t scare me at all.. I just feel peace when i think of .. ‘ who am i.’ So, i think meditation has helped a lot. I also do a lot of physical activity .. to make a balance with meditation and also living.
Dp is just a stage I feel, some people cannot move passed it.. but it is necessary to experince I feel. I know how terrible it can be to experince it.. but DP is a teacher… a difficult course.. but YOU WILL one day be free of it and it will no longer have any control over you.
I wish I could give you specific meditations but i don’t have any. For years i have meditated at least four times a week for 30-1 hour. I usually pray a few minutes first and then i remain as silent and still for the rest of the time. I just surrender my thoughts as much as I can..
just be sure to do physical activity also often.. eat well.. and meditate !
I agree with you but that’s what he’s saying in the video, he just words it differently. The weird thing is , they are similar , and also opposite. This thing isn’t black and white. they’re not the same thing and they’re not opposites.
I too have experienced DP/DR and glimpses of enlightenment and I do think DP/DR was neccessary for me. Enlightenment is a choice, and usually people are jarred very quickly into a state of DP/DR. Usually if i have a DP/DR episode and I just confront it, and feel it, it allows me to get back to normal and back onto my path. Anyway I think most people have to get back to a normal state before they can have any kind of awakening.
I do agree with you though and surrendering would solve the problem and bring one into a blissful non-ego state. I was just saying I think he also thinks the same thing, and just worded it differently.
Hi Michelle,
From past 6 months I’m Experiencing DP/DR. And it took me 3-4 months to realize it was this. I was hoping to talk to you in detail, if that’s possible.
Michelle, this view or the modern psychological view are neither right nor wrong, there is no black and white there is only grey you see?
In past experiences the sense of the ‘evil twin’ has always felt very real and in some people it has caused major disorder in their lives, I seek enlightenment but struggle against mental tortures one in which depersonlization suffices a good description of my often state of awareness, maybe depression or schizophrenia would suffice in other areas, but one thing I can say is Fulfilling is Logic.
@Michelle I agree with you, we’re spiritual beings having human experiences
Mr. Young I have been experiencing DP/DR for 4 years. This happened after I had a spiritual awakening of some sort and felt a tremendous amount of inner peace for 3 weeks. 3 weeks later DP hit. I don’t understand how I went from a state of such oneness with myself and the world to a state of complete detachment. Would you mind if I contacted you to run a couple questions by you?
PS Michelle, what’s up :P Funny to see you on here!
This same thing happened to me over 8 yrs ago now! its been a long 8yrs of trying to distract myself from it instead of confronting it!!! i think the key is befriending it
I actually know a lil’ about spiritual freedom and actually suffer from DP/DR. And this guy is right on point. Listen to him because he knows what he’s talking about.
DP as the “evil twin” of freedom, fearlessness, spiritual freedom is the best description I’ve heard so far.
@Michelle
your story of awakening is very similar to mine, I too developed this on my own… seeing myself in a mirror and questioning the soul at the age of 10.. It gave me unusual sensation for few seconds then I used to shake my head and came out of it.. Whenever I was empty headed I used to do this to me.. 3-4 times a year and DP lasted for seconds.. until 3 months ago. I did this to me again and could not just come out of it this time.. in my case DP is causing anxiety..then anxiety increases DP..I feel I am stuck in a loop.. Sometimes this feeling goes away but not for more than an hour. I talked to a neuro physician and even got an MRI done ( all well ). I am seeing a psychiatrist as well, he says he knows what is DP and says it will go away on its own & says this is not a disorder rather an order.
I am trying to sense spirituality behind it. I feel I will be comfortable with it someday…I would call this Repersonalization and not depersonalization..
“A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.”
~ Antoine de Saint-Exupery ~
Hey Rohit… i think i saw your post on the DP site.. i just wrote to you :)
I look forward to chatting..
what is the dp site? i am looking to read, learn. 6 years of “dp” and 6 years meditation… the dp came first and led me to the teachings. still trying to surrender, understand, engage, relate. thanks much.
Yesss love thinking about it as a repersonlization process…a second honeymoon :) …the first few times it started happening to me also i was able to shake my head out of it till one day it felt like a tidal wave from a black hole hit me and 15 seconds later i no longer knew which way was up… -if there was a compass in the mind it was sent spinning and spinning-.. i am becoming more grateful for it now tho, lots can be learned from this angle!
[Apologies – this is a long comment]
My take: (maybe help some ppl who are fearing in DP, idk)
DP is an experience, and just like all experience, it’s up to one’s interpretation of it that invokes feelings – such as fear of DP, or bliss in DP.
It doesn’t help that in non-spiritual circles (‘normal society’) the DP experience is seen as a ‘disorder’ – and the experiencer of DP is constantly given negative feedback, promoting resistance of the perception.
In spiritual terms: The people in the dream, those who see behind a veil of illusion, want the DP experiencer to start believing the dream again. And the experiencer, if not spiritually knowledgable, is accustomed to perception from the veil, and wants to go back to living in the dream.
i think this is the difference, simply in the interpretation, which leads to fear, “enlightenments evil twin”, or the bliss of emptiness – which follows if the DP is simply accepted.
As Young says, there a bit of self in those who are fearful in DP. Not all is empty, and it’s holding on for dear life. If such a sufferer can be shown to let go, to accept the DP, it’s my experience that beautiful things are to come.
“my story”:
I had a high anxiety series of events – in academics haha! – that led to a spontaneous onset of DP. Without any spiritual wisdom at the time, the DP was seen as a disorder – I got an MRI, saw neurologist, psychologist etc.
I met the psychologist for 3 sessions only, she had no clue, and I just learned to deal with it. Also, perhaps reading about some spiritual seekers and reading the term ‘depersonalize’ in a few texts, i thought, “perhaps this isn’t all that bad”.
Funny thing, with the world constantly promoting the separate-self, i eventually went back to that perception from a self – the perception before DP – i suppose because I started to believe in a self and started living in the dream again. (This may be a technique if you want to go back) From there DP vacillated in intensity, more so in stressful situations.
Fast forward 3.5 years from the onset, i was in conversation with a young lady about awakening, and expressed ‘Right now, i don’t feel sober, like the sober i knew when i was a teen in HS, i feel like i’m in a dream’.
She responds, ‘exactly, that’s how it’s supposed to feel!’
I fell to the ground laughing that i had spent much effort trying to rid myself of from this “DP disorder” perception. What followed shortly, after accepting the state instead of fighting it, were beautiful experiences: feeling an intimacy with all objects, plants, humans, one-ness, joyful bliss of living. Tremendous detail in the world became available.
Also the term “awakening”, involving seeing the world as an illusion, waking up to reality.
Doesn’t this directly relate to DP? In DP, one feels they are in a dream, the world is illusory, it’s like, a type of lucid dreaming, but ‘lucid living’.
The difference btwn DP and awakening may be that a small small sense of self is hanging on by a thread, fearing.
From a spiritual perspective, I might assert that those without DP, who call DP a disorder, and who believe in a self are actually the ones with disorder. DP being closer to the true perception of reality.
This may be only my experience, but at age 3 i remember knowing something of the world that adults seemed to have forgotten, and i wanted to make sure i didn’t forget it.
What ever it was, it was fundamental to life – but, during some point in growing up, i forgot it.
After that acceptance of DP, i’m pretty sure the ensuing perspective of the world was what was known at age 3 – a perception more primary than that forced upon us during conditioning.
That experience lasted 4 days, now vacillates, right now perceiving from a self, but would prefer the DP perception. Funny how this works!
I agree with Michelle, this information in this video is wrong. I’m very skeptical about claims to “spiritual enlightenment” that haven’t involved some kind of hardship, turbulance and pain. Unfortunately, there isn’t much information on the more turbulant and messy side of the process.
In 2007, I had a random thought about the end of the world while at work and had a panic attack. This led to months of depersonalization, existential depression and confusion. I couldn’t find meaning in anything. I wondered around in an anxious mental fog, over-reacted to everything – although I still managed to go to work and do what I needed to do. Eventually, I became so fed up with my condition, despairing, trying to find the answers and fighting it that I completely broke down and surrendered to it. I decided that I would “take each moment as it comes” and not care about anything else, at least I was still alive and breathing. As I did, within days the emptyness went from numb, to calm, to peaceful, to joyful and eventually turned into ecstacy and illumination – I had revelations about my life, the world and my personality was transformed to a significant degree. I became much more more authentic and individuated.
Eckhart Tolle as an example talks about how he had a “glimpse” and spent the next three years in a state of “constant anxiety interspersed with periods of suicidal depression” and “the world seemed so hostile, alien and meaningless”, until he decided that “enough was enough”, that he couldn’t live with it anymore and surrendered to the void.
The state of depersonalization is the true state of “the dark night of the spirit” as described by St John the Baptist, where neither the inner or outter world appear to have any meaning.
In my understanding, in terms of yoga, panic attacks and depersonalization IS the initial awakening of kundalini. Panic is a REACTION to the alteration in consciousness and the unconscious fears that have unleashed. While kundalini is portrayed as a serpent rising up the spine, many mistake this metaphor and map as a literal statement. Kundalini is the core “I consciousness”, and when it awakens it comes into conscious awareness and overwhelms the personality, almost like a light being switched on. This is why people with depersonalization feel as if they have to “will” everything, their movements, their speech, even their breathing. People in depersonalization are occupying a higher state of being but ardently cling to the personality, which causes the unpleasant sensations. The void appears as something frightening and catastrophic, but this is a grand illusion. If the sense of personality had a large unconscious investement in fear and constantly sought to protect it’s self-image, it will lead to what is described as depersonalization as those fears are made conscious and slowely burned away. The unpleasant sensations (visual distortions, rushes of energy in the body etc etc) are all a product of adrenaline. It is a very uncomfortable, often terrifying state – but it isn’t harmful or a state of psychosis. A state of “neurosis” would be more apt.
There are two options at this stage, stay put and fight or move through it. The individual can cling to the scraps of the former personality until the process wanes and goes back to being dormant, if it does (although it will probably cyclically rise again at some point in the future) or they can let go and surrender to the state and accept it, and allow the metamorphosis of the personality to take place. They can remain as the chrysalis or transform. If the individual clings to scraps of the eroded personality, it is probable that a partial transformation will be noticeable when it becomes dormant. If it has already eroded a significant portion of the personality, it may not go to sleep until the process is complete. In my experience, the state of surrender and acceptance is very difficult until you have truly decided that “enough is enough” – which may happen suddenly, or in stages over time – although I don’t doubt that some, as they claim, simply decided to let go.
In my experience and opinion, and from speaking with others and piecing together as much information as I can and connecting the dots, the state of depersonization is an early stage of spontaneous spiritual opening – and even for those who have moved through it and transformed to a significant degree, it will cyclically come around again and again to sweep the system clean, re-organize the personality and put us on track.
That’s my view.
“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Frank Herbert, Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, “Dune”
A little wisdom from pop culture. There are some great points of view here.
Although I disagree with much of it. In the classical texts its said that it is misleading to say that things are either real or unreal, personally I think much of the discussion of nothingness is splitting hairs or the only way to express something that can’t be adequatelly described in words. They are so fond of saying that the self is a fiction, maybe they really mean that the self isn’t extant alone, that it exists in a state of relationship to the other than self. I also think that in some strange way that what is called self by a psychologist steeped in the westren tradition and what is called self by a trained meditator are both fundamentally different things. My reason for this is that those with clinical depersonalization can have their brainwaves measured and it can be shown that they have grey zones of activity in the brain, whereas trained meditators with 1000 hours of meditation or more have had their brain waves measured and it can be shown that they have greater coherence and higher activity in the right brain. Perhaps it is just that the acceptance of no-self is something like a formality necessary to pass from one stage of development to the next. Maybe it is something like a hyperbolic way of realizing that we live in dynamic relationship with everything around ourselves, and that the conditions of self are not static but subject to constant change. In a practical sense is a tree not real because it has roots or because it may lose its leaves or grow fruit. These are just opinions of one of many, and I respect all of the opinions expressed here and they are valuable and well articulated. I think that most of us live in the spectrum between dream and “real” life and knowing that is a kind of a paralell to the idea of taking the middle path for me.
I have been living with this for 6 months now and I have had glimpses of reality return and I believe in my heart that it will return fully. I accept it now and I am at peace but I believe I will have ” my feet on the ground” again and look forward to that time when I can feel connected with the world again. When I can come home to my body. I hope someone can take some value out of my thoughts and that they do not just sound like denial to you all. I am not trying to say there is no value in what is experienced by those such as ourselves who have been to the pit of the void or experienced”the great death” but I prefer to think of it as a rebirth of self rather than an annihilation of ego although admittedly it can be brutal for those of us who must go through at any pace we choose to take. Thanks you guys.
Hi Nick,
I agree with you that there’s no real or unreal, our senses may be too limited to perceived ‘reality’. The egoic self may in fact exist to evolve us to the state of enlightenment.
Anyway I digress, I wanted to ask you what you think about DP in relation to being trapped within ones body?
This is my opinion/view on DP/DR vs Enlightenment (it’s not a fact, only my experience):
DP/DR is experienced as NEGATIVE, Enlightenment as POSITIVE. Why?
DP/DR has a lack of positivity, people start realizing that the ego and environment are subjective without getting the benefit from it. They keep resisting to it, they wanna get back to thereself (the ego) but they can’t. The ego is gone. They get depressed maybe afraid of life. It feels like a total emptyness because you only knew the ego. But when you accept it and start looking for the positive side you will find enlightenment because there is a lack of negativity. This process takes a lot of time and study, selfreflection. Everything is made from the same energy (GOD?) We are that energy, we are ONE, there is nothing else. It’s all about consiousness/ awareness.
Life is so beautiful/peaceful if you stay away from negativity!
8 weeks ago whilst traveling in India, I went to a 10 day Vipassana Mediation retreat which had a profound, life changing impact on my life. Previous to this I had never meditated or considered myself a spiritual person.
Since being home I have kept up the mediation and occasionally I would experience mild derealization similar to what I used to experience as a child but soon enough it would fade. As of late though the feeling of derealization has intensified and taken me over which has now left me lost with no direction.
At the times I am in awe of this beautiful world then it can switch to feelings of isolation and loneliness where everything around me becomes ‘meaningless’. I find myself asking questions ‘Who am I?’, ‘Is this life actually happening or am I in a dream?’.
I read that Vipassana Mediation can trigger the first stages of a ‘ spiritual awakening’. I feel disconnected and detached from my partner and those around me. When I think of the past my memory is foggy even looking at pictures of myself is odd. I have feelings of ‘nothingness’. It is as if I am detaching from myself.
I read that your conditioned mind starts breaking apart and what has collapsed is the whole conceptual framework for your life, the meaning that your mind had given it. So that results in a dark place.
Its scary but I’m learning to let go and surrender. Reading these responses have really helped me, I thought for a second I was losing my mind ( I guess I am).
Dear Jamie,
You’re not alone. :)
May experience is very similar to yours. I have felt this awareness/’detachment’ and awe for life constantly since childhood, though when i grew up the episodes lessened. I then went through depression and after, the episodes came back, but it was more negative or more DP-like (as LOVE puts it)…
I have grown stronger, but it has been tiring to put the ‘aware mind’ over the ‘dp mind’ and Ive contemplated on giving up and taking depression meds. Sometimes periods of ‘no feelings’ would surface and I wouldn’t event be aware mind’ or ‘dp mind’. I would then do nothing, subsequently i would feel depress.
This is so hard, its affecting my life. I’ve tried drugs, holidays and sex. I know it wouldn’t work. Now this is pushing me towards more meditation and exercise and it does help. I suppose this is how we grow :) It gets so bad we do something about it.
Other than that, this experience has been enlightening and the during periods of ‘lucidity’ and awareness, the bliss of appreciating life is great.
I don’t know how sharing my experience will help but I would like you to know you’re not alone and though sometimes it is a lonely experience, we are essentially connected and we do know (presumptuous as it may sound haha).
Be strong.
Lots of love,
Cindy
i don’t understand when people say surrender or let go. i want to but it seems i just don’t know how, but still all these comments give me a small ray of hope to look for thank you
I don’t understand what you want to surrender or let go. Do you mean this feeling of depersonalization?
To let go or surrender means that you fully accept what is. You realize that you can do nothing about it, so you stop wanting to change it. You can of course be afraid of it and panic, but that does not help or make it better. All you can do is let it be…
Just trying to help
All these posts sound on.
I’ve had dp/dr off and on for 18 yrs
It is the self trying to deal with the reality that it really doesn’t care about being itself. Unfortunately your self means so much to others. People going through this process often want to change into a more beautiful person or closer to God. And if you are the one seeking this than you most likely influence the people in your life in a positive way. For you truly are special people! So this is where most dp/dr episodes morph out of the awakening. The awakening requires a certain amount of letting go of your daily life at first to meditate and reflect.This can lead to problems of all kinds with the people who depend on you every day. Wife ,children , friends. The fear of having to let go of everything in your life to maintain this awareness causes a lot stress in the body. I think it alters the first part of your awakening experience with a hard shot of adrenalin kicking your body into some kind will less state that is horrifying, you have to concentrate on the smallest of tasks. Crazy feeling.
The wat to get out of it is tricky. But the power of thought does it. Here comes the time to use all of those wonderful spiritual weapons that you’ve been collecting ever sense the first times when you looked in the mirror as a child and had that chill crawl up your spine
Love Love Love. Sounds silly but if you are awakening and your the product of an american public school system. Or just a kid of American culture, your going to have some awfully scary thoughts from all that worthless information you have lodged in that head. Feelings or non stop daydreaming about doing things that if you acted out in real life you’d be mortified. So don’t trip out. Let them roll off you like they are nothing more that someone else’s thoughts that you are viewing. Eat very healthy. Exercise is good. And so is a little transmitter boost from some Sam-e or 5htp. They will help you get some will power back so you can start to implement a plan to get out of the fog.
Once you are out of the fog. Short term memory coming back for me was a good sign. Now you can enjoy your body and mind again with the reality that your are truly free from your demons. It’s all about will so when the will is gone you know that you are off course from the true feelings of an awakening. True bliss. It’s wonderful. I have not conquered this state yet but know that everything is where it should be. I am constantly moving forward on ANCHORING this state of conciesness. I have so much to learn.
I think. Just my opinion. That dp/dr is just the birthing pains of a spiritual awakening for people on an accelerated path. If you are on an accelerated spiritual path be careful I think. This is always me. And I think it is why I have expierienced dp so many times during my walk. Drugs can really promote this to happen.
Your heart can’t handle what the mind with help of sacred herbs show you. So your waking up a little unbalanced. Maybe like steroids make a person strong very quick but the cartilage and the bones supporting the muscles are not growing with the muscle. Injury occurs.
Keep pushing everyday no matter how much it hurts. And man does it hurt. Things will most definitely get wonderful soon. The cartilage and bone will strengthen to support all your new muscle .Follow selflless ways. This is how you detach and still remain in your ego. Selfless ego. Get it!? Love your life ,yourself and your loved ones. Be careful about what you do in the name of spirituality especially when you are having a negative awakening or DP!!! Delusional would be good word for it ! Lol. !!!!
Love all of you. Hope this helps.
Just my opinion. This path is never easy to talk about. Much less type about.
Peace
How is one depersonalized? vs How is on enlightened? That is the reason that the way oneself interprets “the nothingness”.
Hi,
This website and all of you who are sharing your experiences are helping me a lot. Thank you for sharing.
One question:
I have had similar recurring experiences of the blissful state of awareness and the DP style of it. The thing is, whenever I have a DP style of it, I feel very much aware of my self and feel trap within my own body, as if I can be so much more and soar but here I am…trapped. It happened again today, that’s why I’m here. Anyone with insights on this ‘being trap’ experience?
I actually have this. It just suddenly started about 3 years ago. It is very confusing.
I believe, the feeling I just had a moment before is what all of you are describing expect for that it never was frightening for me. I am only frightened now after reading all those wikipedia things describing as a disorder. I being a neuroscientist now more scared of it coming to me.HELP ME OUT!!!
I had these episodes since I was 14-15. It is rare but when it comes, I want to be in the state longer but it goes away in seconds. I would also want to know if derealization is also something related to it. Sometimes, I even have similar feeling when try to think about few persons. I do not know what it is but I loved it when it was about me.
I am not so sure if I should seek for the feeling or not? Some says, it’s related to bad past experiences and so and so. I never had such bad experiences. I had some emotional trauma (I don’t know if it was that bad to haunt me) as any other teens. Or am I just not strong enough to handle normal stress.
Regarding health, I have migraine and seems to have some hormonal imbalance. I was brought up in very protective environment and since 6 months I am abroad all by myself. My episodes were there before this also. So,it would be kind enough if any of you could explain and give suggestion to me.
I was too raised in a very protective environment. This in fact can lead to a very weak ego (self image) as you are conditioned to think that your parents need to take care of everything, since you won’t be able to do it yourself. A weak ego that you are identified with leads to psychological suffering in the form of fears and low self-esteem. Once this suffering is very intense DP can happen. I look at it like this: consciousness is tired of suffering and can’t take it any longer so it shakes of your ego (a bit). But since your ego is still partially there clinging to its very existence, it is going to judge this state and tell you that it is bad. The “normal” people around you that know nothing about these things are going to tell you that you went nuts and need to see a doctor. They can’t help you, because they have no clue at all.
Great to find and read this page! Really great!
I’ve experienced this “emptiness/DR/DP”since I was 18 (I’m 45 now). At first, it was marvellous, but then, it made me puke of fear – literally!!!! Ever since, I’ve been trying to understand this insight, reading very, very much, starting meditation, and trying to find other people with the same “experience”.
After all those years, there’s kind of a frame in which all this fits, partly. I can also see the other side, “the (un)Ground”, etc. Nevertheless, the fear of the fear is still there, and the utterly unexplainibility of this all.
What helped me, I guess, is:
* meeting at least one other person with the same insight
* reading a lot; especially Zen (Hakuin!), Ramana Maharshi, Krishnamurti, and especially Ton Lathouwers
* meditation
* “standing still”, and just see what “it” is; letting the “emptiness” and fear and all come in, and just see what happens
* realizing, physically, that I’m “present”
* accepting the sense of “I” – even though it “doesn’t exist”, it’s still there; letting it in, whilst it calls up those fears
* loving and caring for others!!! Realizing that there are “things” in this world, persecutions, violence, which you can’t stop, but which do happen, and simply not accepting it. “As long as you believe in the good, the bad hasn’t won”
* keeping faithfull to this “insight” – as if I couldn’t… This “insight” is so true, so unchangeable true, despite the fears and everything
Forgot to mention what triggered “it” for me: thinking about school experiences, how the interactions with others have shaped and formed me, reading Jung and Freud to understand my psyche. And then starting to ask “What is this “I” they are writing about?” The concrete trigger was a story from a Christian preacher about how he walked on the beach, totally forgetting himself, then “waking up” again to his normal self, and retracing his steps. It made me wonder “So, this notion of “I” can diappear, and still you function; the what is this “I”?” Soem time later (couple of months?), walking outside the shopping mall, I just realised “This “I” is not what I am; “I” am kind of a projection screen, multi-dimensioal, on or in which this all appears. i am “emptiness”. That was marvellous! But shortly after that, in a discussion with my parents, I wanted to prove they were “wrong”. I culdn’t, which made me upset for a couple of days. Then I wanted to come back to my “normal self”, you know, pulling it out of memory so to speak. “”I”? Which I? There is no I…” That’s where I lost the ground, everything. Nothing to hold on to. Very frightening! Wanting to grap it, an I, yself, to stand up against things, and realizing there was no “I”. So, indeed, the “Evil Twin”.
Its my opinion that falling into the pit of the void is a past life cognition reappearing, Could be wrong because I only have my own experience to draw from, but because of the nature of my experiences it seems like this knowledge or experience is the result of having had experiences with deep meditation in a past life, having gotten to the gate but not crossed over. for what it is worth, my natal chart backs up this idea saying that “in past lives I spent alot of time in egoless states probably in meditation, and elsewhere it says that I probably have access to knowledge of the underworld. I understand that the idea of no-self and reincarnation seem to contradict, but that is only the conventional understanding of reincarnation and who or what is reincarnating. I’ll leave the explanation and details out for now
The dp dr is the result of still holding onto the self ideology while also having cognition of no-self. So we live in two worlds. My understanding of void an no self has broadened and elaborated over the years, and has become something different. less dark and destructive; even creative as my understanding ding grows. I’ll leave my interpretations out for now.
One thing I have noticed is the more I focus on void, it is empowering to the sense of self. I’ve acquired knowledge from the meditation and insight into everything about reality; its been going on about 15 to 16 years, I can draw it to mind at will. I should ad too that “void” to me is now something else. It is AN infinity, but also an aspect of an entire realm of infinities that I call non-existence.
When I focus on void/non-existence, things begin to fall apart in my life, I become reclusive, and full of anxiety, I lose things and events where in things fall into dissolution rapidly occur, lose work broken vehicle etc, all things that facilitate the social experience of not being, where in I lose everything I have, yet the acquired knowledge accentuates my ego state do to its nature being esoteric.
It also becomes something you cant not believe, and since no one else understands, this too isolates you among the masses which also fortifies the self concept and ego state.
Through out the day i get feeling not there, not being all the time. Having kids I am constantly pulled back in, my ego is constantly being pulled to the for front of the illusory reality where it is forced to act and be. This causes stress and anxiety, even developing into rage.
This whole thing is very misunderstood IMO, it is not a bad thing at all, part of something greater but you cant get caught up in emotions or the experience wont elaborate and show you what it really is, and what void really is.
Through this experience I’ve been to heaven and hell, the voids and creation. I have experienced in trance like states the final stages of the dhyana/meditation process which total enlightenment, and been witness to the mistake “I” made.
I’d enjoy talking about this further with anyone but dont want to go into anything without other people participating, and for all I know this page is long abandoned.
Stuart, are you still around?
Hi Davida- Yea I’m still around.
Very happy to find this discussion!
I have been seeking for enlightenment for many years and finally I encountered this discovery of no-ego. “There’s nobody here!!”
However, that was not the bliss that I expected and I felt confounded and puzzeled about thinking, is this really awakening? It feels not good at all!
I felt like I am nobody, a zombie, an undead person..
I couldn’t believe that real awakening could be like this and denied my experience for more than one year.
But there came a time when at last I couldn’t deny the authenticity of it.
I don’t know why and how, but I felt so much peace to just being,
and the more I rested in peace and the more I knew that the bliss was from within,
without no other cause than just be-ing.
There was also recognition with other people’s experience story in the videos of Adyashanti, and I felt more at ease from then.
I also read the books of Bernadette Roberts where she explains at lenght about her no-ego experience and her no-self experience which she distinguishes clearly.
Nevertheless, from time to time I wonder what that state means.
If it is awakening, could it be that it means the stream-enterer level mentioned in Buddhism? I am trying to find out.
I am now used to this DP and I don’t feel the initial puzzlement or estrangement anymore. I enjoy this emptiness and not-knowingness. I even remember that I had always been cozy with this feeling of no-whereness since my childhood.
A while ago I was surfing the internet and met the word Depersonalisation Disorder and at first was surprised and thought, What? I was a dp/dr disorder patient???
I even did the test and received the result 39. It says,
“Your score of 39 falls in the range of Severe Depersonalization (25-75).”
Wow, I didn’t know there was so many kinds of Disorder states…
But I am not afraid at all because I don’t feel anormal at all.
Having no resistance to the symptoms of DP.
Simply that I have to face from time to time a feeling of no meanings in my life even though I am still seeking for final Realisation of the Truth.
Fortunately I become aware more quickly of my feelings of emptiness, good or bad, and I realize that this is just a thought or feelings arising from past conditionings…
Well, my conclusion is that awakening to the reality of no-ego can be disorienting if we resist it with the old tendencies of self-centered paradigm, and be experienced as disorder only to the extent that we ignore the reality of our true nature…
I agree with many of you that it is maybe the Dark Night of the Soul of Saint-John of the Cross, and also that this may be due to the realizations of past lives where the awakening was there but the full enlighenment was not yet achieved.
When somebody is still looking for the final enlightenment, that is impossible to reach that stage, because somebody is already in the enlightenment. The fact that you sometimes are feeling the voidness or emptiness shows that you are well understanding the meaning of the emptiness and that you don’t know what emptiness is really meaning. You are not the feeler nor knower, but you are the emptiness itself. You are the final destination, There is no other step or level you should achieve in the future. In my opinion, you are still believing in that the entities should be there. This misunderstanding prevent you from accepting your experience. If you are more familiar with emptiness, you will find what I means really. Please take a rest and enjoy your life.
Fascinating topic. I had Satori experiences as a child as a result of a sort of spontaneous Hua Tou practice I developed by accident, and I’ve always thought that DP/DR has some relation to “it”. I don’t know if I would say something as specific as it being the “evil twin”, but I’m certain it “tickles” the same part of the brain – i.e. from a neurological point of view, I’d wager some of the same areas in the brain are involved.
But actually, “it” is definitely more than DP/DR. There’s something else there. Yes, there’s an absence of the ordinary sense of self, the ordinary sense of reality, or a sort of transparency or falling away of those, and that [i]aspect[/i] of it is probably identical to the DP/DR experience. But that’s only a [i]component[/i] of the awakening experience proper.
There’s something else there that’s extraordinarily difficult to describe. The best description I’ve ever found is the succint Zen one (Chinese Zen, guy, can’t remember his name): “I am not, but the universe is my self”. DP/DR covers the “I am not”, but it doesn’t cover the “the universe is my self”, and that’s what “fills” the experience with a sort of certainty and confidence that the Tibetans describe as the Vajra – adamantine certainty and hardness of confidence that “this is it”. Full stop. The end. And that it’s a wholly positive experience, with no negative aspect to it, is part of it, part of what’s diamond-hard in the experience.
well said peter, mira and Nagarjuna. It is definitely more then just the DP?DR because there is an understanding that goes a with it in my experience. I am OK with the DP/DR at this point. I think the thing to do is to focus on practice.
I just started a meditation practice last september so almost a year ago now, but I stopped in January or February due to a dislocated pelvic bone I had gotten from loading a heavy log into a truck.
I just started back up a week ago after experiencing extreme emptiness while at work. I was working on a two man job when suddenly everything became extremely apart from my observation of it like watching a movie except the images were abstract and meaninless. When I triecd to focus I could hardly tell the difference betweeen upside down and right side up. I told the dude I had to go and sit in meditation to try to get focusssed. I didn’t expect to be more then 15-20 minutes and thats what I told him. When I sdtopped meditation I would sit for 20 mintutes but within 10 days I was sitting for 45-60 minutes at least once a day. I think the reason iss inpart due to the ” DP/DR” ; it makes it easier to sit for long periods…I dunno but when this happened at work the other day I sat half lotus on my shoes on the ground for 3 hours, which I say without arrogance is pretty good for someone who has in total only been practicing for a few months.
So gthat is what I am going to do is praactice meditation more seriously. In Dhyana, (meditation) the brain can re-program/re-wire itself. That is probably what needs to happen for us to balance the brain which is programmed to the mind wich is, but also isn’t programmed. I think each of us could say at least for analogy sake that our brain’s and mind’s are programmed differently meaning thatthe brain has been wired to the illusion but our mind’s underst5and something unfathomly deeper then what the illusion reveals.
I’m very surprised this comment thread is still going on but I’m glad it is.
Are you all continuing to meditate while you feel these effects?
Which effects K I try mot to think, or feel anything while in meditation, not to focuss on it anyway but just to be still and silent. If you’re talkiung about depression or anxiety . I feel compelled to sit when I feel negativity but Ive also gone ointo a defeatedness, depression right after meditation once and I was conscious that it was because of something that dissapointed me about the session, but as silly as the reason was, it seemed like the end of the world.
I realised for myself, anxiety, depression and labelling dp and the ego as ‘bad’ occurs because my ego tend to be self critical and wants to hang on itself out of familiarity and being accepted within ‘non-spiritual circles (‘normal society’)’ as Joey aptly puts it.
This being self critical stems from my need of always wanting to understand and boiling things down to the common denominator. It didn’t help that my patience is minute.
Frustration and further episodes of depression (along with periods of lucidity of the self,appreciation of life and seeing the growth as a person) came along, but hey! It made me understand that it is a process towards understanding and perhaps we can be kinder to ourselves :)
labeling it doesn’t help at all, going around talking about being dp, how coult that help ? De-personed unhealthy title to identify with for sure. It actually took a while for me to realize I have the “symptoms”or whatever because I never complained about it, and besides a couple terrifying experiences with voidness, and uncomfortable one with the concept of shunyata while I was at work, some freaked out dreams about literally falling into the void, and hearing the vacuum right at the point of falling to sleep, and a scary experience where I retained a sense of self but experienced loss of identity . and concept of thing I’ve pretty much always been friends with voidness which is very much a daily thing with me theses days so I was never freaked out, although I do for sure experience those symptoms. When Im down in non-existence I can get weird, contorted, hyper-tense and high anxiety, but I know it goes with the territory so Im not to freaked out by it in a way that I associated these symptoms with the experience. Its just who I’ve always known myself as.
Yes it makes it difficult to live in the world and luckily I found a job where stopping work space out, is tolerated.
I’ve had trouble in school etc and didn’t get far in math, 8th grade level but recently learned how to write differential equations to describe void etc with calculus and Im going to write a book with the insight I’ve developed spending the last 15-18 years sitting and watching reality in the place before time, which will be written like a story, and will have all the math and equations included.
In a way, I just all of the sudden stopped identifying with with Buddhism when I decided to write the book. I look around at the Buddhist, and who they claim is enlightened and dont agree, with their interpretations of Buddha, enlightenment, or the void, yet I can describe how I am here right now and that is directly traceable through the interdependent origins all the way back to emptiness/shunyata, which is void but they dont agree, yet can’t prove it other then they dont like the concept of nihilism which I dont either, but it doesnt fit in just because shunyata is void. But I’ve grown tired of internet discussions where I have my hopes that som e how at a sight like this (no offense), Ill meet up with others and we’ll link up some how and that will help, or be the start of something.
not only have I spent Alot of time in void, episodes spanning nearly half my life and growing, but I retain pastlife cognition as well im sure; I feel I am probably one of the most knowledgable people on the subject and when I found out that there was this syndrome or whatever that void people “suffer” and all about this shinzen guy I wanted to help others, I tried to contact shinzen, who is merely an intellectual whos over intellectualized the experience from a place of no experience, but alsohe’s applied and labeled it with duality, and of course, who am I to get a hold of him? And who am I to go out on some crusade when I cant even get a response in a discussion forum???
So Im doing the math and writing a book, entiotled the Theory of Double Negativity.
this feels horrible, found myself in the nothingness for three weeks, nothing at all to do anymore, everything clear in every aspect of perfection, sound, sight, it was like when you see in a movie of a person who dies and goes to heaven, finds themselves and everyone, everything in this same heaven, all equal as equal can be. in the most beautiful field, life so vibrant all around them, the sound silent, but every sense is perfect. then one day while sitting in this complete bliss, all of a sudden a blast of negative energy hit me like lightning, the body started acting out without the mind, it confused and freaked the mind out, and threw it out of the bliss state. this makes no sense of anything. is this similar to anyone? i mean have you found the ultimate bliss, and then it shatters? everything is so distorted at times, not understanding words at times, difficult to find the path back. there is so much guilt in all of this. like nothing done in respect to the highest power, to the highest of everything can be full respect to it all, at times it feels selfish. its like forcing respect to love on someone to love you back. but also its selfish not to respect it all. its as Stuart says, Double Negative. its as scripture describes of a fallen angel at times. sometimes there is a glimmer of god. earlier today i had thanked god for this damnation, that somewhat helped a little with work. it made work enjoyable, work was being done in the respect of god, in spirit of spirit, not for anything else, but there were still thoughts in my head, so not completely with god, but that god was watching over me, rather than in gods full embrace, not in god’s kingdom, but under rule of it. more so at the gates of heaven rather than in them. st. paul came to mind, but i wonder if this pit that everyone talks about is similar to the experience of the ultimate, then loosing it? i do know prior i had gone through a few stages, before the last of ego death. which should be the never returning state. is this what st. paul experienced, or was he still at one of the earlier stages of ego death? many of the dreams now are as if working through different mazes, never finding the way through the door. its as though i can’t live in the truth, nor can i not live in it.
so what are you saying? the depersonalization is the same as a kundalini awakening only different to some people. I had such an experience after practicing yoga and meditation. it was mostly an amazing experience other then some brief rough goes where i had auditory hallucination and strong feelings of guilt and doom..i don’t know how anybody can truly know what this is or what it is to anybody else. I had the classical symptoms of a kundalini awakenig. however almost no western psychiatrist would tell me this..They would tell me i had a dissociation or a psychotic break. i guess a loss in coinsciousness where the ego is sort of lost..is always part of these experiences however if one is prone “let go” they will see this as spiritual development. if one is fighting to keep the ego in or in panic mode without the ego strongly in place they will see this as a mental health disorder….so the pectrum of these similar experiences can literally be from losing your f–in g mind to enlightenment….one mans crazy is another man’s eccentric.
Then, how is it possible, that this phenomena can be found in “classic Buddhist literature”? Obviously there are persons, who are actually aiming at experiencing “no-self” and nonetheless fall into the pit of the void.
regarding Egolessness and Depersonalization
I think Egolessness is often misunderstood with dangerous consequences as some do dangerous things while claiming to be egoless. In my opinion the Egolessness is a state in which the person does not have any desire to experience any sense pleasure without any attempting to suppress the desire to experience pleasure, but as an outcome of self-less surrender to the practice of continuous chanting of a mantra, constant prayer or meditation. Such a person also does not experience pleasure while doing previously pleasurable things such as eating a piece of candy as the heart and mind is totally engrossed in the practice of mantra chanting or meditation. It is not a bad thing to be so engrossed in the mantra or meditation but actually recommended in various religions like Judaism, Hinduism, etc. It can be dangerous when a person does something dangerous like having sex irresponsibly while claiming to do it for someone else and not for himself or herself.
Depersonalization can be benign and may indicate spiritual growth as a result of asking the question “who am I?” as recommended by Ramana Maharshi and by practicing “witness meditation” in which the person pays a keen but non-judgmental attention to his or her actions and reactions to events, but it is a problem when it is a result of a major emotional trauma like a break-up or something similarly traumatic.
When you have depersonalization and nothing seems to be important then what are you meant to do with your life? How to go on? What to do next? Krishnamurti describes the ego-less state as passionate. Could it be that we don’t know what we are passionate about? What our true special abilities are that we can use on Earth to make it a better place to live in?
Can I just say that Eckhart explains this from Chapter 10 in his book.
Could you tell me which book?
Hi guys, not sure if your still around but I wanted to comment, I’ve suffered depersonalization since I was around 17 even though I have felt strange ever since I starting smoking weed. When I had my first episode of it, it scared the absolute shit out of me but you have to treat it as your teacher. Everything takes time, the way I’m saying this is as in your in control of all of this but you aren’t. Suffering is absolutely horrible and I am currently going through my second episode of it right now after smoking weed again after a meditation session even though that time felt different as I felt hot energy going through my body and I saw balls of white and blue light. This could be something else such as enlightenment which would be really strange as I’ve only been meditating for 3 months. Anyway just know you cannot control any of the thoughts which enter your mind and just practise saying I accept that thought and if you have any resistance accept the resistance. Thanks
ive been feeling something that i can only describe as dpdr for the last year. for myself it was after a deep spiritual awakening, when i woke up, i found myself in a deep tranquil space, everything was filled with light, i saw into something that i could only describe as oneness, and a presence of god. i felt destroyed into the oneness of the universe, outside a physical world and being. i couldnt tell where i started or ended, what was me, and what was not. this all happened after a very tramatic life event. i started to study meditation on healing, and understanding why i felt so incomplete, the more i studied, the more the divine was opening, till i found nothing left but the light. i felt reborn into this oneness connected to god, but after some time in the eternal space i felt myself drawn back out, a sudden shift in energy and reality, and back in this physical world. it feels so unreal, and im so depressed and scared as to where i am now, idk what to do or where to go. i feel as though i have been reincarnated into an old world, but now it is like a bad dream. ive been looking for help, but idk where to turn to especially in my area where the meditation healing centers appear to only deal with folks who have money, and do not provide work trade programs, or deal with people experiencing post awakening issues, instead they direct me to suicide hotlines, the mental health units, and drug rehab counceling, although i have expressed it as a spiritual emergency, and not a chemical problem they all treat it as such. all i want is to feel real again, whatever that reality may be, either one is better than what i am going through in this state. the only thing that has kept me going is knowing that im not alone in this. i have talked to many others who are experiencing the exact same thing, but still find it hard to find help, or people who are willing to work with those who are incompasitated in this state. i am not nessisarily complaining, but i am determined to reach out for someone or something that can, or will help spiritually guide me. its become difficult to find a way out, and this constant feeling of being trapped inside the mind. i can’t even tell if im being heard, if there is help, if what i had experienced was real, or made up although from my own perspective, it was very real, it was more than real could get. i don’t want to feel this way, i don’t want to be put in a mental hospital, pumped with drugs, or to die in this lost state of mind. i just want to feel complete and clear again, and spiritually free to work and live with others, to feel as though i can breath and enjoy all that life has to offer again. i find myself living, but i don’t feel alive at all.
Well I can’t comment on the first half and your “spiritual” experiences. But the second half of your post shows a serious state of self pity. Just look at what word is used by you several times in each of your sentences. I, I, I and I… Self pity won’t get you anywhere. Self pity makes problems worse and leads to suicidal thoughts.
Wow, Krisz. Your post demonstrates a deep lack of compassion for what chris shared. Compassion is key to any attempt to gain enlightenment and necessary for people who experience the horrifying and scary effects of depersonalization. While I don’t have the space to say much right now I do want you to know chris that I understand where you are coming from. Perhaps you can seek a spiritual teacher who can work one on one with you, and keep searching for other communities to join. Is there a Shambhala center near you? Also I would like to say thank you for being vulnerable.
I’m sorry to seem so insensitive. It was my experience I shared with you. Sometimes a clap in the face is needed to come back to the present moment.
Here is my point of view, in case anyone is interested:
Both enlightenment and dp have thef eeling of the loss of self in common. The difference may indeed be the Interpretation, however in both cases it is an Interpretation of the mind. The General Problem i see in the debate about conciousness is that it is often misunderstood as the sense of self. As a depersonalized Person loses his sense of self, his mind frekas out, because ecerything that was once seen as meaningful is lost. the mind of an enlightened Person interprets it as pure bliss because all the fears are gone and there are no Problems anymore, even the fear of death is gone. However is the sense of self something very different from actual conciousness. Many scientists believe, that they can explain conciousness neurological, yet what they actually mean is the sense of self. As well is an enlightened Person convinced that he does not have a self anymore and that there is no self at all and just collective conciousness, which is in my eyes also a mistake. If the ego is an Illusion, what is illusioned? if there is no self, what is enlightened? even if it were the truth that all is one (which from a certain perspective obviously is), there would still have to be something seperate in order to experience this! In a state of deep Meditation or no thought there is the experience of no self, yet there has to be something experiencing it, and calling this “truth” is actually an Interpretation by the mind. I agree, that there is nothing more certain, than the “simple isness of the present Moment” (e. Tolle), yet there has to be a mind to acknowledge this, and this mind can perceive that it is seperate, like the eyes, if opened, can perceive that there is light. Yet all of this would be meaningless if there were no conciousness, if we were all like biological robots. However this Interpretation makes to me as Little sense as the idea of a collective conciousness. I hope to get some replies, peace to all!
I do not agree with the idea that thought “invents” the idea of a self. I would rather say that through thought we are able to experience there there is obviuosly something strange in the universe/a self: we can go out and look at Things and see that they exist, yet through thinking we can have Access to the fact that as we see other persons, their eyes are probably also involved in a seeing-process by them, which leads to the conclusion, that what we see is also processed thorugh something similair (the eyes). As a result, there is something that can be seen, but not seen by us (our eyes) and we aree in a way seperated.
And yes, there are so called enlightenment-experiences in which a Person has no self awareness anymore through a reduction of thought activity or via disidentification through the creation of “meta-thoughts” (which in my Depersonalisation is the case most of the time). yet considering the thoughts as an Instrument to realise that there is a self, one could compare an enlightenment experiences to closing the eyes: the calim would be: there is no light, it is just an Illusion created by the eyes. so when i Close my eyes then there is no light to me anymore and i conclude that my Claim was right. when i open my eyes again i will certainly see light again, yet i will call it an Illusion.
I do not say that there is no Knowledge beyond rational thinking or that Meditation is not powerful to gain wisdom or experience extraordinary states of “conciousness”. I only see it as problematic to draw “rational”, commuicable conclusions from those states, because the instant, you have a thought about that state, it collapses, and anything that you might have to say about it becomes a mere speculation of the mind. For me, the only conclusion from all this is cogito ergo sum. whether this me is the same that has experienced, what i call my Memory is speculation, but in order to Claim anything to be true, one has to consider the own Memory as truth since there is no thought that arises from itself, but only always a chain of thoughts (in order to conclude, i Need to assume that my former assumptions are true), and any thought about thoughtlessness is also dependent on Memory, since thought and thoughtlessness cannot coexist at a time in the same mind. I know i am repeating a lot of what i have already said, but i just want to make my Point of view as clear as possible and put my experience is the most accurate form of words.
ive been experiencing something for the last year that i believe is dpdr. all i can really remember is that after a tramatizing life experience is that i started freaking out about everything, i went through this dark night for a few months. i remember that i was thinking that i was going nuts, and i was, i was full of emotions, but then i started to read about cbt, and Buddhism. i remember through the cbt work, and studying Buddhism i could overcome my mental illnesses, and to be honest it seemed to work really well. i started getting deeper and deeper into spiritual practices of all kinds, not just buddhism, and through these practices, i could throw myself into different states of mind. i remember one day i had a near death experience through practice, and i realized that infact i was not the self. i remember feeling really great after this conclusion. i remember i kept practicing, and helping others. i remember there being a day where i felt that i had finished all the spiritual work that i had to do, and that i was ready to leave the world all together. i remember myself leaving my body, i went through a tunnel, and when i woke up, i was in a new world. much like the world of duality, but everything i was experiencing had no form, shape to it. at first it was odd, but i remember after some time that i noticed that time didn’t exist, people didn’t exist, and neither did i, but i wasn’t scared, infact it was quite the opposit of that. very freeing, and very exciting, but i remember even those feelings didn’t have feeling, but all was feeling within itself. i would say that i found myself at home there. i remember seeing everything and everyone as one being of this higher being within itself. call it god, call it the universe, whatever you want to call it, to be honest it doesnt really matter the name or title of it. but i was seeing it as it truly was, is. im not really sure what happened after that, but all i know is that this body i saw in front of me, that i would saw was my spirit body started to freak out, and i was confused as to why, or what it was freaking out to, i remember feeling through the spirit body an invisible physical force hit me from behind like a mac truck. i would say thats what started making the body freak out, but for me, the mind, i was still, but the body kept on freaking out, i remember it saying fuck dharma, fuck god. as soon as this happened i remember i started to freak out, and i remember i had to grab my arm, and stop it, because it started to touch me in inepropriate ways. i needed it to stop. i remember this happening a few times, and then finally it stopped, but when it stopped i found myself back in my body, and back in a physical world. i remember that i felt this chill throughout my entire body that felt like my skin was torn off, even though it wasn’t. i remember the worst headache that seemed to be never ending. it felt and looked like it was going to explode. i remember my mind still precived everything in this state of no seperation for a while, but it wasn’t light, or heaven, but hell. the very bottom of hell. i was terified of myself and others. i remember that when i would touched objects that the very texture of them would freak me out, when i would hear music or watch anything like a movie, i wasn’t preceiving them from the heavenly state anymore, but from a hell state of a deeper reality. it isn’t as bad as it was, but now my experience is like seeing emptiness that isn’t fully empty. i try to go about my days not thinking about it, but its like it won’t leave me. i find myself dropping in and out of this real, unreal perseption, and it makes it almost impossible to do anything at all. i still feel foreign to my body, in my body, and when im with or around people, or doing just about anything is this constant experience of not being real. i experience memories and thoughts, but its not like they are mine, but some other being’s thoughts, some other being’s life, some other being’s reality that doesn’t exist. its really shitty for lack of a better word, because i want to enjoy life. i want to enjoy the good times, the bad times, but its like im unable to because it all appears unreal to me. i can’t tell if im alive or dead, neither or both. i just feel so stuck in this mental prison, banging on the walls, trying to escape. i find myself doing and saying odd things at times, not really aware of what i am saying or doing, but always having this feeling that they are off. i find people looking at me at times like wtf? i tried getting back to working a job for a while, but i had to quit because i would find myself constantly zoned out, and struggling to preform even the simplest of tasks. i feel like i get myself into situations that may not only be unwise legally, but unwise spiritually as well because i feel trapped in this space in my mind where i cant fully see what is going on, or know where i am. hopefully i am not detering anyone from finding themselves spiritually. honestly that is the very last thing i want to happen. and i do not think this experience will happen for everyone, but it just so happens to be the experience that i am facing at the moment. im simple a lost and confused soul trying to find himself again from anyone who might have had an experience similar to mine, and might understand what i am going through, and who may have overcome this experience i am having now, and would be able to help guide me out of it. whoever this me may be. thank you for this opportunity to express myself on this site, and best of wishes to anyone going through rough times. deep down although everything appears unreal, i just want you to know i love all of you, and hope to come back to you in a better state of mind and manner.
The only problem is that you grasp on your desires and do not really understand the reality of desire itself. Your mind wasn’t ready to the Truth and wants to go back to the old usual world, but once you have a glimpse you can’t really go back. I suggest that you read some books of David Hawkins or study Buddhist theory on the non-self.
Don’t be attached to life, that is the point…
Resistance is hell, Surrender is heaven.
The underlying negativity you feel all the time when having DP is what Eckhart calls the pain body. If you don’t know that (and most people don’t – just like Misong pointed out) you may feel that something is wrong whit you. And this strengthens the pain body even more. The only way out is surrender / acceptance. All the best.
I just wanted to mention that it is extremely cathartic to just write about my feelings which I try to do in my journal. I think I am getting in touch with decades of repressed anger and developing compassion for myself and others, in particular my family.
Please take my comments down. I was just venting and now really don’t want it up. Thanks.
I took them down as soon as i got your email. Try reloading the page on your browser since they might be showing up from the cache there. It doesn’t mean anyone else will see them, just that they’re stored on your device.
Smiling Buddha Cabaret 
How odd. I came across this the other day and then couldn’t find it again (amongst the countless Shinzen Young videos on Youtube). And now here it is again here. Thanks.
This is wrong. I have experienced dp/dr since the age of 7. I have also expereinced many wonderful spiritual events during my life. And I also have experienced a kundalini awakening. Dp/dr is not scary once surrendered to and understood that it is a quick thrust into non-ego states which force one to surrender and experience a higher state of being. Not all surrender to this and try to latch on to ego-mind. Obvisouly psychology considers it a disorder because they do not see beyond the veils of illusion. I expereinced dp/dr at the age of 7 when i was looking in the mirror and asked myself ‘ who am i?’ this has happened to many others. It is a trigger to these dp/dr states.
Oh and did you know that the mind SHUTTS DOWN during these states? Why?.. because it is an ego-less state. There is no ‘evil twin’ to enlightenment. The only evil twin are those are are addicted to logic.
How do you cope with DP/DR now – I mean, since you “learned” to surrender to it, did the void of it transform, or merely become latent? I am experiencing DP/DR and have done so for a year. I too have had nice experienciences with meditation, before, but not since. It is difficult to find hollistic information about, because most of it is confounded by mistakes of rebirth experiences. Reading “Feeling unreal” gives a nice overview, but from a fairly western psychology point of view. Any directions would be much appreciated..
since I have been meditating more frequently.. and since i had a strong spiritual experince during meditation.. the dp is actualy not there… or i should say, not the same way it was. It use to be scary to feel dp… or scary when i contemplated ‘the self’ too much.. now, it doesn’t scare me at all.. I just feel peace when i think of .. ‘ who am i.’ So, i think meditation has helped a lot. I also do a lot of physical activity .. to make a balance with meditation and also living.
Dp is just a stage I feel, some people cannot move passed it.. but it is necessary to experince I feel. I know how terrible it can be to experince it.. but DP is a teacher… a difficult course.. but YOU WILL one day be free of it and it will no longer have any control over you.
I wish I could give you specific meditations but i don’t have any. For years i have meditated at least four times a week for 30-1 hour. I usually pray a few minutes first and then i remain as silent and still for the rest of the time. I just surrender my thoughts as much as I can..
just be sure to do physical activity also often.. eat well.. and meditate !
I agree with you but that’s what he’s saying in the video, he just words it differently. The weird thing is , they are similar , and also opposite. This thing isn’t black and white. they’re not the same thing and they’re not opposites.
I too have experienced DP/DR and glimpses of enlightenment and I do think DP/DR was neccessary for me. Enlightenment is a choice, and usually people are jarred very quickly into a state of DP/DR. Usually if i have a DP/DR episode and I just confront it, and feel it, it allows me to get back to normal and back onto my path. Anyway I think most people have to get back to a normal state before they can have any kind of awakening.
I do agree with you though and surrendering would solve the problem and bring one into a blissful non-ego state. I was just saying I think he also thinks the same thing, and just worded it differently.
Hi Michelle,
From past 6 months I’m Experiencing DP/DR. And it took me 3-4 months to realize it was this. I was hoping to talk to you in detail, if that’s possible.
Michelle, this view or the modern psychological view are neither right nor wrong, there is no black and white there is only grey you see?
In past experiences the sense of the ‘evil twin’ has always felt very real and in some people it has caused major disorder in their lives, I seek enlightenment but struggle against mental tortures one in which depersonlization suffices a good description of my often state of awareness, maybe depression or schizophrenia would suffice in other areas, but one thing I can say is Fulfilling is Logic.
@Michelle I agree with you, we’re spiritual beings having human experiences
Mr. Young I have been experiencing DP/DR for 4 years. This happened after I had a spiritual awakening of some sort and felt a tremendous amount of inner peace for 3 weeks. 3 weeks later DP hit. I don’t understand how I went from a state of such oneness with myself and the world to a state of complete detachment. Would you mind if I contacted you to run a couple questions by you?
PS Michelle, what’s up :P Funny to see you on here!
This same thing happened to me over 8 yrs ago now! its been a long 8yrs of trying to distract myself from it instead of confronting it!!! i think the key is befriending it
I actually know a lil’ about spiritual freedom and actually suffer from DP/DR. And this guy is right on point. Listen to him because he knows what he’s talking about.
DP as the “evil twin” of freedom, fearlessness, spiritual freedom is the best description I’ve heard so far.
@Michelle
your story of awakening is very similar to mine, I too developed this on my own… seeing myself in a mirror and questioning the soul at the age of 10.. It gave me unusual sensation for few seconds then I used to shake my head and came out of it.. Whenever I was empty headed I used to do this to me.. 3-4 times a year and DP lasted for seconds.. until 3 months ago. I did this to me again and could not just come out of it this time.. in my case DP is causing anxiety..then anxiety increases DP..I feel I am stuck in a loop.. Sometimes this feeling goes away but not for more than an hour. I talked to a neuro physician and even got an MRI done ( all well ). I am seeing a psychiatrist as well, he says he knows what is DP and says it will go away on its own & says this is not a disorder rather an order.
I am trying to sense spirituality behind it. I feel I will be comfortable with it someday…I would call this Repersonalization and not depersonalization..
“A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.”
~ Antoine de Saint-Exupery ~
Hey Rohit… i think i saw your post on the DP site.. i just wrote to you :)
I look forward to chatting..
what is the dp site? i am looking to read, learn. 6 years of “dp” and 6 years meditation… the dp came first and led me to the teachings. still trying to surrender, understand, engage, relate. thanks much.
Yesss love thinking about it as a repersonlization process…a second honeymoon :) …the first few times it started happening to me also i was able to shake my head out of it till one day it felt like a tidal wave from a black hole hit me and 15 seconds later i no longer knew which way was up… -if there was a compass in the mind it was sent spinning and spinning-.. i am becoming more grateful for it now tho, lots can be learned from this angle!
[Apologies – this is a long comment]
My take: (maybe help some ppl who are fearing in DP, idk)
DP is an experience, and just like all experience, it’s up to one’s interpretation of it that invokes feelings – such as fear of DP, or bliss in DP.
It doesn’t help that in non-spiritual circles (‘normal society’) the DP experience is seen as a ‘disorder’ – and the experiencer of DP is constantly given negative feedback, promoting resistance of the perception.
In spiritual terms: The people in the dream, those who see behind a veil of illusion, want the DP experiencer to start believing the dream again. And the experiencer, if not spiritually knowledgable, is accustomed to perception from the veil, and wants to go back to living in the dream.
i think this is the difference, simply in the interpretation, which leads to fear, “enlightenments evil twin”, or the bliss of emptiness – which follows if the DP is simply accepted.
As Young says, there a bit of self in those who are fearful in DP. Not all is empty, and it’s holding on for dear life. If such a sufferer can be shown to let go, to accept the DP, it’s my experience that beautiful things are to come.
“my story”:
I had a high anxiety series of events – in academics haha! – that led to a spontaneous onset of DP. Without any spiritual wisdom at the time, the DP was seen as a disorder – I got an MRI, saw neurologist, psychologist etc.
I met the psychologist for 3 sessions only, she had no clue, and I just learned to deal with it. Also, perhaps reading about some spiritual seekers and reading the term ‘depersonalize’ in a few texts, i thought, “perhaps this isn’t all that bad”.
Funny thing, with the world constantly promoting the separate-self, i eventually went back to that perception from a self – the perception before DP – i suppose because I started to believe in a self and started living in the dream again. (This may be a technique if you want to go back) From there DP vacillated in intensity, more so in stressful situations.
Fast forward 3.5 years from the onset, i was in conversation with a young lady about awakening, and expressed ‘Right now, i don’t feel sober, like the sober i knew when i was a teen in HS, i feel like i’m in a dream’.
She responds, ‘exactly, that’s how it’s supposed to feel!’
I fell to the ground laughing that i had spent much effort trying to rid myself of from this “DP disorder” perception. What followed shortly, after accepting the state instead of fighting it, were beautiful experiences: feeling an intimacy with all objects, plants, humans, one-ness, joyful bliss of living. Tremendous detail in the world became available.
Also the term “awakening”, involving seeing the world as an illusion, waking up to reality.
Doesn’t this directly relate to DP? In DP, one feels they are in a dream, the world is illusory, it’s like, a type of lucid dreaming, but ‘lucid living’.
The difference btwn DP and awakening may be that a small small sense of self is hanging on by a thread, fearing.
From a spiritual perspective, I might assert that those without DP, who call DP a disorder, and who believe in a self are actually the ones with disorder. DP being closer to the true perception of reality.
This may be only my experience, but at age 3 i remember knowing something of the world that adults seemed to have forgotten, and i wanted to make sure i didn’t forget it.
What ever it was, it was fundamental to life – but, during some point in growing up, i forgot it.
After that acceptance of DP, i’m pretty sure the ensuing perspective of the world was what was known at age 3 – a perception more primary than that forced upon us during conditioning.
That experience lasted 4 days, now vacillates, right now perceiving from a self, but would prefer the DP perception. Funny how this works!
Contact me on fb if you’d like!
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I agree with Michelle, this information in this video is wrong. I’m very skeptical about claims to “spiritual enlightenment” that haven’t involved some kind of hardship, turbulance and pain. Unfortunately, there isn’t much information on the more turbulant and messy side of the process.
In 2007, I had a random thought about the end of the world while at work and had a panic attack. This led to months of depersonalization, existential depression and confusion. I couldn’t find meaning in anything. I wondered around in an anxious mental fog, over-reacted to everything – although I still managed to go to work and do what I needed to do. Eventually, I became so fed up with my condition, despairing, trying to find the answers and fighting it that I completely broke down and surrendered to it. I decided that I would “take each moment as it comes” and not care about anything else, at least I was still alive and breathing. As I did, within days the emptyness went from numb, to calm, to peaceful, to joyful and eventually turned into ecstacy and illumination – I had revelations about my life, the world and my personality was transformed to a significant degree. I became much more more authentic and individuated.
Eckhart Tolle as an example talks about how he had a “glimpse” and spent the next three years in a state of “constant anxiety interspersed with periods of suicidal depression” and “the world seemed so hostile, alien and meaningless”, until he decided that “enough was enough”, that he couldn’t live with it anymore and surrendered to the void.
The state of depersonalization is the true state of “the dark night of the spirit” as described by St John the Baptist, where neither the inner or outter world appear to have any meaning.
In my understanding, in terms of yoga, panic attacks and depersonalization IS the initial awakening of kundalini. Panic is a REACTION to the alteration in consciousness and the unconscious fears that have unleashed. While kundalini is portrayed as a serpent rising up the spine, many mistake this metaphor and map as a literal statement. Kundalini is the core “I consciousness”, and when it awakens it comes into conscious awareness and overwhelms the personality, almost like a light being switched on. This is why people with depersonalization feel as if they have to “will” everything, their movements, their speech, even their breathing. People in depersonalization are occupying a higher state of being but ardently cling to the personality, which causes the unpleasant sensations. The void appears as something frightening and catastrophic, but this is a grand illusion. If the sense of personality had a large unconscious investement in fear and constantly sought to protect it’s self-image, it will lead to what is described as depersonalization as those fears are made conscious and slowely burned away. The unpleasant sensations (visual distortions, rushes of energy in the body etc etc) are all a product of adrenaline. It is a very uncomfortable, often terrifying state – but it isn’t harmful or a state of psychosis. A state of “neurosis” would be more apt.
There are two options at this stage, stay put and fight or move through it. The individual can cling to the scraps of the former personality until the process wanes and goes back to being dormant, if it does (although it will probably cyclically rise again at some point in the future) or they can let go and surrender to the state and accept it, and allow the metamorphosis of the personality to take place. They can remain as the chrysalis or transform. If the individual clings to scraps of the eroded personality, it is probable that a partial transformation will be noticeable when it becomes dormant. If it has already eroded a significant portion of the personality, it may not go to sleep until the process is complete. In my experience, the state of surrender and acceptance is very difficult until you have truly decided that “enough is enough” – which may happen suddenly, or in stages over time – although I don’t doubt that some, as they claim, simply decided to let go.
In my experience and opinion, and from speaking with others and piecing together as much information as I can and connecting the dots, the state of depersonization is an early stage of spontaneous spiritual opening – and even for those who have moved through it and transformed to a significant degree, it will cyclically come around again and again to sweep the system clean, re-organize the personality and put us on track.
That’s my view.
“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Frank Herbert, Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, “Dune”
A little wisdom from pop culture. There are some great points of view here.
Although I disagree with much of it. In the classical texts its said that it is misleading to say that things are either real or unreal, personally I think much of the discussion of nothingness is splitting hairs or the only way to express something that can’t be adequatelly described in words. They are so fond of saying that the self is a fiction, maybe they really mean that the self isn’t extant alone, that it exists in a state of relationship to the other than self. I also think that in some strange way that what is called self by a psychologist steeped in the westren tradition and what is called self by a trained meditator are both fundamentally different things. My reason for this is that those with clinical depersonalization can have their brainwaves measured and it can be shown that they have grey zones of activity in the brain, whereas trained meditators with 1000 hours of meditation or more have had their brain waves measured and it can be shown that they have greater coherence and higher activity in the right brain. Perhaps it is just that the acceptance of no-self is something like a formality necessary to pass from one stage of development to the next. Maybe it is something like a hyperbolic way of realizing that we live in dynamic relationship with everything around ourselves, and that the conditions of self are not static but subject to constant change. In a practical sense is a tree not real because it has roots or because it may lose its leaves or grow fruit. These are just opinions of one of many, and I respect all of the opinions expressed here and they are valuable and well articulated. I think that most of us live in the spectrum between dream and “real” life and knowing that is a kind of a paralell to the idea of taking the middle path for me.
I have been living with this for 6 months now and I have had glimpses of reality return and I believe in my heart that it will return fully. I accept it now and I am at peace but I believe I will have ” my feet on the ground” again and look forward to that time when I can feel connected with the world again. When I can come home to my body. I hope someone can take some value out of my thoughts and that they do not just sound like denial to you all. I am not trying to say there is no value in what is experienced by those such as ourselves who have been to the pit of the void or experienced”the great death” but I prefer to think of it as a rebirth of self rather than an annihilation of ego although admittedly it can be brutal for those of us who must go through at any pace we choose to take. Thanks you guys.
Hi Nick,
I agree with you that there’s no real or unreal, our senses may be too limited to perceived ‘reality’. The egoic self may in fact exist to evolve us to the state of enlightenment.
Anyway I digress, I wanted to ask you what you think about DP in relation to being trapped within ones body?
This is my opinion/view on DP/DR vs Enlightenment (it’s not a fact, only my experience):
DP/DR is experienced as NEGATIVE, Enlightenment as POSITIVE. Why?
DP/DR has a lack of positivity, people start realizing that the ego and environment are subjective without getting the benefit from it. They keep resisting to it, they wanna get back to thereself (the ego) but they can’t. The ego is gone. They get depressed maybe afraid of life. It feels like a total emptyness because you only knew the ego. But when you accept it and start looking for the positive side you will find enlightenment because there is a lack of negativity. This process takes a lot of time and study, selfreflection. Everything is made from the same energy (GOD?) We are that energy, we are ONE, there is nothing else. It’s all about consiousness/ awareness.
Life is so beautiful/peaceful if you stay away from negativity!
8 weeks ago whilst traveling in India, I went to a 10 day Vipassana Mediation retreat which had a profound, life changing impact on my life. Previous to this I had never meditated or considered myself a spiritual person.
Since being home I have kept up the mediation and occasionally I would experience mild derealization similar to what I used to experience as a child but soon enough it would fade. As of late though the feeling of derealization has intensified and taken me over which has now left me lost with no direction.
At the times I am in awe of this beautiful world then it can switch to feelings of isolation and loneliness where everything around me becomes ‘meaningless’. I find myself asking questions ‘Who am I?’, ‘Is this life actually happening or am I in a dream?’.
I read that Vipassana Mediation can trigger the first stages of a ‘ spiritual awakening’. I feel disconnected and detached from my partner and those around me. When I think of the past my memory is foggy even looking at pictures of myself is odd. I have feelings of ‘nothingness’. It is as if I am detaching from myself.
I read that your conditioned mind starts breaking apart and what has collapsed is the whole conceptual framework for your life, the meaning that your mind had given it. So that results in a dark place.
Its scary but I’m learning to let go and surrender. Reading these responses have really helped me, I thought for a second I was losing my mind ( I guess I am).
Dear Jamie,
You’re not alone. :)
May experience is very similar to yours. I have felt this awareness/’detachment’ and awe for life constantly since childhood, though when i grew up the episodes lessened. I then went through depression and after, the episodes came back, but it was more negative or more DP-like (as LOVE puts it)…
I have grown stronger, but it has been tiring to put the ‘aware mind’ over the ‘dp mind’ and Ive contemplated on giving up and taking depression meds. Sometimes periods of ‘no feelings’ would surface and I wouldn’t event be aware mind’ or ‘dp mind’. I would then do nothing, subsequently i would feel depress.
This is so hard, its affecting my life. I’ve tried drugs, holidays and sex. I know it wouldn’t work. Now this is pushing me towards more meditation and exercise and it does help. I suppose this is how we grow :) It gets so bad we do something about it.
Other than that, this experience has been enlightening and the during periods of ‘lucidity’ and awareness, the bliss of appreciating life is great.
I don’t know how sharing my experience will help but I would like you to know you’re not alone and though sometimes it is a lonely experience, we are essentially connected and we do know (presumptuous as it may sound haha).
Be strong.
Lots of love,
Cindy
i don’t understand when people say surrender or let go. i want to but it seems i just don’t know how, but still all these comments give me a small ray of hope to look for thank you
I don’t understand what you want to surrender or let go. Do you mean this feeling of depersonalization?
To let go or surrender means that you fully accept what is. You realize that you can do nothing about it, so you stop wanting to change it. You can of course be afraid of it and panic, but that does not help or make it better. All you can do is let it be…
Just trying to help
All these posts sound on.
I’ve had dp/dr off and on for 18 yrs
It is the self trying to deal with the reality that it really doesn’t care about being itself. Unfortunately your self means so much to others. People going through this process often want to change into a more beautiful person or closer to God. And if you are the one seeking this than you most likely influence the people in your life in a positive way. For you truly are special people! So this is where most dp/dr episodes morph out of the awakening. The awakening requires a certain amount of letting go of your daily life at first to meditate and reflect.This can lead to problems of all kinds with the people who depend on you every day. Wife ,children , friends. The fear of having to let go of everything in your life to maintain this awareness causes a lot stress in the body. I think it alters the first part of your awakening experience with a hard shot of adrenalin kicking your body into some kind will less state that is horrifying, you have to concentrate on the smallest of tasks. Crazy feeling.
The wat to get out of it is tricky. But the power of thought does it. Here comes the time to use all of those wonderful spiritual weapons that you’ve been collecting ever sense the first times when you looked in the mirror as a child and had that chill crawl up your spine
Love Love Love. Sounds silly but if you are awakening and your the product of an american public school system. Or just a kid of American culture, your going to have some awfully scary thoughts from all that worthless information you have lodged in that head. Feelings or non stop daydreaming about doing things that if you acted out in real life you’d be mortified. So don’t trip out. Let them roll off you like they are nothing more that someone else’s thoughts that you are viewing. Eat very healthy. Exercise is good. And so is a little transmitter boost from some Sam-e or 5htp. They will help you get some will power back so you can start to implement a plan to get out of the fog.
Once you are out of the fog. Short term memory coming back for me was a good sign. Now you can enjoy your body and mind again with the reality that your are truly free from your demons. It’s all about will so when the will is gone you know that you are off course from the true feelings of an awakening. True bliss. It’s wonderful. I have not conquered this state yet but know that everything is where it should be. I am constantly moving forward on ANCHORING this state of conciesness. I have so much to learn.
I think. Just my opinion. That dp/dr is just the birthing pains of a spiritual awakening for people on an accelerated path. If you are on an accelerated spiritual path be careful I think. This is always me. And I think it is why I have expierienced dp so many times during my walk. Drugs can really promote this to happen.
Your heart can’t handle what the mind with help of sacred herbs show you. So your waking up a little unbalanced. Maybe like steroids make a person strong very quick but the cartilage and the bones supporting the muscles are not growing with the muscle. Injury occurs.
Keep pushing everyday no matter how much it hurts. And man does it hurt. Things will most definitely get wonderful soon. The cartilage and bone will strengthen to support all your new muscle .Follow selflless ways. This is how you detach and still remain in your ego. Selfless ego. Get it!? Love your life ,yourself and your loved ones. Be careful about what you do in the name of spirituality especially when you are having a negative awakening or DP!!! Delusional would be good word for it ! Lol. !!!!
Love all of you. Hope this helps.
Just my opinion. This path is never easy to talk about. Much less type about.
Peace
How is one depersonalized? vs How is on enlightened? That is the reason that the way oneself interprets “the nothingness”.
Hi,
This website and all of you who are sharing your experiences are helping me a lot. Thank you for sharing.
One question:
I have had similar recurring experiences of the blissful state of awareness and the DP style of it. The thing is, whenever I have a DP style of it, I feel very much aware of my self and feel trap within my own body, as if I can be so much more and soar but here I am…trapped. It happened again today, that’s why I’m here. Anyone with insights on this ‘being trap’ experience?
I actually have this. It just suddenly started about 3 years ago. It is very confusing.
I believe, the feeling I just had a moment before is what all of you are describing expect for that it never was frightening for me. I am only frightened now after reading all those wikipedia things describing as a disorder. I being a neuroscientist now more scared of it coming to me.HELP ME OUT!!!
I had these episodes since I was 14-15. It is rare but when it comes, I want to be in the state longer but it goes away in seconds. I would also want to know if derealization is also something related to it. Sometimes, I even have similar feeling when try to think about few persons. I do not know what it is but I loved it when it was about me.
I am not so sure if I should seek for the feeling or not? Some says, it’s related to bad past experiences and so and so. I never had such bad experiences. I had some emotional trauma (I don’t know if it was that bad to haunt me) as any other teens. Or am I just not strong enough to handle normal stress.
Regarding health, I have migraine and seems to have some hormonal imbalance. I was brought up in very protective environment and since 6 months I am abroad all by myself. My episodes were there before this also. So,it would be kind enough if any of you could explain and give suggestion to me.
I was too raised in a very protective environment. This in fact can lead to a very weak ego (self image) as you are conditioned to think that your parents need to take care of everything, since you won’t be able to do it yourself. A weak ego that you are identified with leads to psychological suffering in the form of fears and low self-esteem. Once this suffering is very intense DP can happen. I look at it like this: consciousness is tired of suffering and can’t take it any longer so it shakes of your ego (a bit). But since your ego is still partially there clinging to its very existence, it is going to judge this state and tell you that it is bad. The “normal” people around you that know nothing about these things are going to tell you that you went nuts and need to see a doctor. They can’t help you, because they have no clue at all.
Great to find and read this page! Really great!
I’ve experienced this “emptiness/DR/DP”since I was 18 (I’m 45 now). At first, it was marvellous, but then, it made me puke of fear – literally!!!! Ever since, I’ve been trying to understand this insight, reading very, very much, starting meditation, and trying to find other people with the same “experience”.
After all those years, there’s kind of a frame in which all this fits, partly. I can also see the other side, “the (un)Ground”, etc. Nevertheless, the fear of the fear is still there, and the utterly unexplainibility of this all.
What helped me, I guess, is:
* meeting at least one other person with the same insight
* reading a lot; especially Zen (Hakuin!), Ramana Maharshi, Krishnamurti, and especially Ton Lathouwers
* meditation
* “standing still”, and just see what “it” is; letting the “emptiness” and fear and all come in, and just see what happens
* realizing, physically, that I’m “present”
* accepting the sense of “I” – even though it “doesn’t exist”, it’s still there; letting it in, whilst it calls up those fears
* loving and caring for others!!! Realizing that there are “things” in this world, persecutions, violence, which you can’t stop, but which do happen, and simply not accepting it. “As long as you believe in the good, the bad hasn’t won”
* keeping faithfull to this “insight” – as if I couldn’t… This “insight” is so true, so unchangeable true, despite the fears and everything
Forgot to mention what triggered “it” for me: thinking about school experiences, how the interactions with others have shaped and formed me, reading Jung and Freud to understand my psyche. And then starting to ask “What is this “I” they are writing about?” The concrete trigger was a story from a Christian preacher about how he walked on the beach, totally forgetting himself, then “waking up” again to his normal self, and retracing his steps. It made me wonder “So, this notion of “I” can diappear, and still you function; the what is this “I”?” Soem time later (couple of months?), walking outside the shopping mall, I just realised “This “I” is not what I am; “I” am kind of a projection screen, multi-dimensioal, on or in which this all appears. i am “emptiness”. That was marvellous! But shortly after that, in a discussion with my parents, I wanted to prove they were “wrong”. I culdn’t, which made me upset for a couple of days. Then I wanted to come back to my “normal self”, you know, pulling it out of memory so to speak. “”I”? Which I? There is no I…” That’s where I lost the ground, everything. Nothing to hold on to. Very frightening! Wanting to grap it, an I, yself, to stand up against things, and realizing there was no “I”. So, indeed, the “Evil Twin”.
Its my opinion that falling into the pit of the void is a past life cognition reappearing, Could be wrong because I only have my own experience to draw from, but because of the nature of my experiences it seems like this knowledge or experience is the result of having had experiences with deep meditation in a past life, having gotten to the gate but not crossed over. for what it is worth, my natal chart backs up this idea saying that “in past lives I spent alot of time in egoless states probably in meditation, and elsewhere it says that I probably have access to knowledge of the underworld. I understand that the idea of no-self and reincarnation seem to contradict, but that is only the conventional understanding of reincarnation and who or what is reincarnating. I’ll leave the explanation and details out for now
The dp dr is the result of still holding onto the self ideology while also having cognition of no-self. So we live in two worlds. My understanding of void an no self has broadened and elaborated over the years, and has become something different. less dark and destructive; even creative as my understanding ding grows. I’ll leave my interpretations out for now.
One thing I have noticed is the more I focus on void, it is empowering to the sense of self. I’ve acquired knowledge from the meditation and insight into everything about reality; its been going on about 15 to 16 years, I can draw it to mind at will. I should ad too that “void” to me is now something else. It is AN infinity, but also an aspect of an entire realm of infinities that I call non-existence.
When I focus on void/non-existence, things begin to fall apart in my life, I become reclusive, and full of anxiety, I lose things and events where in things fall into dissolution rapidly occur, lose work broken vehicle etc, all things that facilitate the social experience of not being, where in I lose everything I have, yet the acquired knowledge accentuates my ego state do to its nature being esoteric.
It also becomes something you cant not believe, and since no one else understands, this too isolates you among the masses which also fortifies the self concept and ego state.
Through out the day i get feeling not there, not being all the time. Having kids I am constantly pulled back in, my ego is constantly being pulled to the for front of the illusory reality where it is forced to act and be. This causes stress and anxiety, even developing into rage.
This whole thing is very misunderstood IMO, it is not a bad thing at all, part of something greater but you cant get caught up in emotions or the experience wont elaborate and show you what it really is, and what void really is.
Through this experience I’ve been to heaven and hell, the voids and creation. I have experienced in trance like states the final stages of the dhyana/meditation process which total enlightenment, and been witness to the mistake “I” made.
I’d enjoy talking about this further with anyone but dont want to go into anything without other people participating, and for all I know this page is long abandoned.
Stuart, are you still around?
Hi Davida- Yea I’m still around.
Very happy to find this discussion!
I have been seeking for enlightenment for many years and finally I encountered this discovery of no-ego. “There’s nobody here!!”
However, that was not the bliss that I expected and I felt confounded and puzzeled about thinking, is this really awakening? It feels not good at all!
I felt like I am nobody, a zombie, an undead person..
I couldn’t believe that real awakening could be like this and denied my experience for more than one year.
But there came a time when at last I couldn’t deny the authenticity of it.
I don’t know why and how, but I felt so much peace to just being,
and the more I rested in peace and the more I knew that the bliss was from within,
without no other cause than just be-ing.
There was also recognition with other people’s experience story in the videos of Adyashanti, and I felt more at ease from then.
I also read the books of Bernadette Roberts where she explains at lenght about her no-ego experience and her no-self experience which she distinguishes clearly.
Nevertheless, from time to time I wonder what that state means.
If it is awakening, could it be that it means the stream-enterer level mentioned in Buddhism? I am trying to find out.
I am now used to this DP and I don’t feel the initial puzzlement or estrangement anymore. I enjoy this emptiness and not-knowingness. I even remember that I had always been cozy with this feeling of no-whereness since my childhood.
A while ago I was surfing the internet and met the word Depersonalisation Disorder and at first was surprised and thought, What? I was a dp/dr disorder patient???
I even did the test and received the result 39. It says,
“Your score of 39 falls in the range of Severe Depersonalization (25-75).”
Wow, I didn’t know there was so many kinds of Disorder states…
But I am not afraid at all because I don’t feel anormal at all.
Having no resistance to the symptoms of DP.
Simply that I have to face from time to time a feeling of no meanings in my life even though I am still seeking for final Realisation of the Truth.
Fortunately I become aware more quickly of my feelings of emptiness, good or bad, and I realize that this is just a thought or feelings arising from past conditionings…
Well, my conclusion is that awakening to the reality of no-ego can be disorienting if we resist it with the old tendencies of self-centered paradigm, and be experienced as disorder only to the extent that we ignore the reality of our true nature…
I agree with many of you that it is maybe the Dark Night of the Soul of Saint-John of the Cross, and also that this may be due to the realizations of past lives where the awakening was there but the full enlighenment was not yet achieved.
When somebody is still looking for the final enlightenment, that is impossible to reach that stage, because somebody is already in the enlightenment. The fact that you sometimes are feeling the voidness or emptiness shows that you are well understanding the meaning of the emptiness and that you don’t know what emptiness is really meaning. You are not the feeler nor knower, but you are the emptiness itself. You are the final destination, There is no other step or level you should achieve in the future. In my opinion, you are still believing in that the entities should be there. This misunderstanding prevent you from accepting your experience. If you are more familiar with emptiness, you will find what I means really. Please take a rest and enjoy your life.
Fascinating topic. I had Satori experiences as a child as a result of a sort of spontaneous Hua Tou practice I developed by accident, and I’ve always thought that DP/DR has some relation to “it”. I don’t know if I would say something as specific as it being the “evil twin”, but I’m certain it “tickles” the same part of the brain – i.e. from a neurological point of view, I’d wager some of the same areas in the brain are involved.
But actually, “it” is definitely more than DP/DR. There’s something else there. Yes, there’s an absence of the ordinary sense of self, the ordinary sense of reality, or a sort of transparency or falling away of those, and that [i]aspect[/i] of it is probably identical to the DP/DR experience. But that’s only a [i]component[/i] of the awakening experience proper.
There’s something else there that’s extraordinarily difficult to describe. The best description I’ve ever found is the succint Zen one (Chinese Zen, guy, can’t remember his name): “I am not, but the universe is my self”. DP/DR covers the “I am not”, but it doesn’t cover the “the universe is my self”, and that’s what “fills” the experience with a sort of certainty and confidence that the Tibetans describe as the Vajra – adamantine certainty and hardness of confidence that “this is it”. Full stop. The end. And that it’s a wholly positive experience, with no negative aspect to it, is part of it, part of what’s diamond-hard in the experience.
well said peter, mira and Nagarjuna. It is definitely more then just the DP?DR because there is an understanding that goes a with it in my experience. I am OK with the DP/DR at this point. I think the thing to do is to focus on practice.
I just started a meditation practice last september so almost a year ago now, but I stopped in January or February due to a dislocated pelvic bone I had gotten from loading a heavy log into a truck.
I just started back up a week ago after experiencing extreme emptiness while at work. I was working on a two man job when suddenly everything became extremely apart from my observation of it like watching a movie except the images were abstract and meaninless. When I triecd to focus I could hardly tell the difference betweeen upside down and right side up. I told the dude I had to go and sit in meditation to try to get focusssed. I didn’t expect to be more then 15-20 minutes and thats what I told him. When I sdtopped meditation I would sit for 20 mintutes but within 10 days I was sitting for 45-60 minutes at least once a day. I think the reason iss inpart due to the ” DP/DR” ; it makes it easier to sit for long periods…I dunno but when this happened at work the other day I sat half lotus on my shoes on the ground for 3 hours, which I say without arrogance is pretty good for someone who has in total only been practicing for a few months.
So gthat is what I am going to do is praactice meditation more seriously. In Dhyana, (meditation) the brain can re-program/re-wire itself. That is probably what needs to happen for us to balance the brain which is programmed to the mind wich is, but also isn’t programmed. I think each of us could say at least for analogy sake that our brain’s and mind’s are programmed differently meaning thatthe brain has been wired to the illusion but our mind’s underst5and something unfathomly deeper then what the illusion reveals.
Some might find this interesting regarding mindfulness and the potential side effect of depersonalization Mindfulness therapy comes at a high price for some, say experts
I’m very surprised this comment thread is still going on but I’m glad it is.
Are you all continuing to meditate while you feel these effects?
Which effects K I try mot to think, or feel anything while in meditation, not to focuss on it anyway but just to be still and silent. If you’re talkiung about depression or anxiety . I feel compelled to sit when I feel negativity but Ive also gone ointo a defeatedness, depression right after meditation once and I was conscious that it was because of something that dissapointed me about the session, but as silly as the reason was, it seemed like the end of the world.
I realised for myself, anxiety, depression and labelling dp and the ego as ‘bad’ occurs because my ego tend to be self critical and wants to hang on itself out of familiarity and being accepted within ‘non-spiritual circles (‘normal society’)’ as Joey aptly puts it.
This being self critical stems from my need of always wanting to understand and boiling things down to the common denominator. It didn’t help that my patience is minute.
Frustration and further episodes of depression (along with periods of lucidity of the self,appreciation of life and seeing the growth as a person) came along, but hey! It made me understand that it is a process towards understanding and perhaps we can be kinder to ourselves :)
labeling it doesn’t help at all, going around talking about being dp, how coult that help ? De-personed unhealthy title to identify with for sure. It actually took a while for me to realize I have the “symptoms”or whatever because I never complained about it, and besides a couple terrifying experiences with voidness, and uncomfortable one with the concept of shunyata while I was at work, some freaked out dreams about literally falling into the void, and hearing the vacuum right at the point of falling to sleep, and a scary experience where I retained a sense of self but experienced loss of identity . and concept of thing I’ve pretty much always been friends with voidness which is very much a daily thing with me theses days so I was never freaked out, although I do for sure experience those symptoms. When Im down in non-existence I can get weird, contorted, hyper-tense and high anxiety, but I know it goes with the territory so Im not to freaked out by it in a way that I associated these symptoms with the experience. Its just who I’ve always known myself as.
Yes it makes it difficult to live in the world and luckily I found a job where stopping work space out, is tolerated.
I’ve had trouble in school etc and didn’t get far in math, 8th grade level but recently learned how to write differential equations to describe void etc with calculus and Im going to write a book with the insight I’ve developed spending the last 15-18 years sitting and watching reality in the place before time, which will be written like a story, and will have all the math and equations included.
In a way, I just all of the sudden stopped identifying with with Buddhism when I decided to write the book. I look around at the Buddhist, and who they claim is enlightened and dont agree, with their interpretations of Buddha, enlightenment, or the void, yet I can describe how I am here right now and that is directly traceable through the interdependent origins all the way back to emptiness/shunyata, which is void but they dont agree, yet can’t prove it other then they dont like the concept of nihilism which I dont either, but it doesnt fit in just because shunyata is void. But I’ve grown tired of internet discussions where I have my hopes that som e how at a sight like this (no offense), Ill meet up with others and we’ll link up some how and that will help, or be the start of something.
not only have I spent Alot of time in void, episodes spanning nearly half my life and growing, but I retain pastlife cognition as well im sure; I feel I am probably one of the most knowledgable people on the subject and when I found out that there was this syndrome or whatever that void people “suffer” and all about this shinzen guy I wanted to help others, I tried to contact shinzen, who is merely an intellectual whos over intellectualized the experience from a place of no experience, but alsohe’s applied and labeled it with duality, and of course, who am I to get a hold of him? And who am I to go out on some crusade when I cant even get a response in a discussion forum???
So Im doing the math and writing a book, entiotled the Theory of Double Negativity.
this feels horrible, found myself in the nothingness for three weeks, nothing at all to do anymore, everything clear in every aspect of perfection, sound, sight, it was like when you see in a movie of a person who dies and goes to heaven, finds themselves and everyone, everything in this same heaven, all equal as equal can be. in the most beautiful field, life so vibrant all around them, the sound silent, but every sense is perfect. then one day while sitting in this complete bliss, all of a sudden a blast of negative energy hit me like lightning, the body started acting out without the mind, it confused and freaked the mind out, and threw it out of the bliss state. this makes no sense of anything. is this similar to anyone? i mean have you found the ultimate bliss, and then it shatters? everything is so distorted at times, not understanding words at times, difficult to find the path back. there is so much guilt in all of this. like nothing done in respect to the highest power, to the highest of everything can be full respect to it all, at times it feels selfish. its like forcing respect to love on someone to love you back. but also its selfish not to respect it all. its as Stuart says, Double Negative. its as scripture describes of a fallen angel at times. sometimes there is a glimmer of god. earlier today i had thanked god for this damnation, that somewhat helped a little with work. it made work enjoyable, work was being done in the respect of god, in spirit of spirit, not for anything else, but there were still thoughts in my head, so not completely with god, but that god was watching over me, rather than in gods full embrace, not in god’s kingdom, but under rule of it. more so at the gates of heaven rather than in them. st. paul came to mind, but i wonder if this pit that everyone talks about is similar to the experience of the ultimate, then loosing it? i do know prior i had gone through a few stages, before the last of ego death. which should be the never returning state. is this what st. paul experienced, or was he still at one of the earlier stages of ego death? many of the dreams now are as if working through different mazes, never finding the way through the door. its as though i can’t live in the truth, nor can i not live in it.
so what are you saying? the depersonalization is the same as a kundalini awakening only different to some people. I had such an experience after practicing yoga and meditation. it was mostly an amazing experience other then some brief rough goes where i had auditory hallucination and strong feelings of guilt and doom..i don’t know how anybody can truly know what this is or what it is to anybody else. I had the classical symptoms of a kundalini awakenig. however almost no western psychiatrist would tell me this..They would tell me i had a dissociation or a psychotic break. i guess a loss in coinsciousness where the ego is sort of lost..is always part of these experiences however if one is prone “let go” they will see this as spiritual development. if one is fighting to keep the ego in or in panic mode without the ego strongly in place they will see this as a mental health disorder….so the pectrum of these similar experiences can literally be from losing your f–in g mind to enlightenment….one mans crazy is another man’s eccentric.
Then, how is it possible, that this phenomena can be found in “classic Buddhist literature”? Obviously there are persons, who are actually aiming at experiencing “no-self” and nonetheless fall into the pit of the void.
regarding Egolessness and Depersonalization
I think Egolessness is often misunderstood with dangerous consequences as some do dangerous things while claiming to be egoless. In my opinion the Egolessness is a state in which the person does not have any desire to experience any sense pleasure without any attempting to suppress the desire to experience pleasure, but as an outcome of self-less surrender to the practice of continuous chanting of a mantra, constant prayer or meditation. Such a person also does not experience pleasure while doing previously pleasurable things such as eating a piece of candy as the heart and mind is totally engrossed in the practice of mantra chanting or meditation. It is not a bad thing to be so engrossed in the mantra or meditation but actually recommended in various religions like Judaism, Hinduism, etc. It can be dangerous when a person does something dangerous like having sex irresponsibly while claiming to do it for someone else and not for himself or herself.
Depersonalization can be benign and may indicate spiritual growth as a result of asking the question “who am I?” as recommended by Ramana Maharshi and by practicing “witness meditation” in which the person pays a keen but non-judgmental attention to his or her actions and reactions to events, but it is a problem when it is a result of a major emotional trauma like a break-up or something similarly traumatic.
When you have depersonalization and nothing seems to be important then what are you meant to do with your life? How to go on? What to do next? Krishnamurti describes the ego-less state as passionate. Could it be that we don’t know what we are passionate about? What our true special abilities are that we can use on Earth to make it a better place to live in?
Can I just say that Eckhart explains this from Chapter 10 in his book.
Could you tell me which book?
Hi guys, not sure if your still around but I wanted to comment, I’ve suffered depersonalization since I was around 17 even though I have felt strange ever since I starting smoking weed. When I had my first episode of it, it scared the absolute shit out of me but you have to treat it as your teacher. Everything takes time, the way I’m saying this is as in your in control of all of this but you aren’t. Suffering is absolutely horrible and I am currently going through my second episode of it right now after smoking weed again after a meditation session even though that time felt different as I felt hot energy going through my body and I saw balls of white and blue light. This could be something else such as enlightenment which would be really strange as I’ve only been meditating for 3 months. Anyway just know you cannot control any of the thoughts which enter your mind and just practise saying I accept that thought and if you have any resistance accept the resistance. Thanks
ive been feeling something that i can only describe as dpdr for the last year. for myself it was after a deep spiritual awakening, when i woke up, i found myself in a deep tranquil space, everything was filled with light, i saw into something that i could only describe as oneness, and a presence of god. i felt destroyed into the oneness of the universe, outside a physical world and being. i couldnt tell where i started or ended, what was me, and what was not. this all happened after a very tramatic life event. i started to study meditation on healing, and understanding why i felt so incomplete, the more i studied, the more the divine was opening, till i found nothing left but the light. i felt reborn into this oneness connected to god, but after some time in the eternal space i felt myself drawn back out, a sudden shift in energy and reality, and back in this physical world. it feels so unreal, and im so depressed and scared as to where i am now, idk what to do or where to go. i feel as though i have been reincarnated into an old world, but now it is like a bad dream. ive been looking for help, but idk where to turn to especially in my area where the meditation healing centers appear to only deal with folks who have money, and do not provide work trade programs, or deal with people experiencing post awakening issues, instead they direct me to suicide hotlines, the mental health units, and drug rehab counceling, although i have expressed it as a spiritual emergency, and not a chemical problem they all treat it as such. all i want is to feel real again, whatever that reality may be, either one is better than what i am going through in this state. the only thing that has kept me going is knowing that im not alone in this. i have talked to many others who are experiencing the exact same thing, but still find it hard to find help, or people who are willing to work with those who are incompasitated in this state. i am not nessisarily complaining, but i am determined to reach out for someone or something that can, or will help spiritually guide me. its become difficult to find a way out, and this constant feeling of being trapped inside the mind. i can’t even tell if im being heard, if there is help, if what i had experienced was real, or made up although from my own perspective, it was very real, it was more than real could get. i don’t want to feel this way, i don’t want to be put in a mental hospital, pumped with drugs, or to die in this lost state of mind. i just want to feel complete and clear again, and spiritually free to work and live with others, to feel as though i can breath and enjoy all that life has to offer again. i find myself living, but i don’t feel alive at all.
Well I can’t comment on the first half and your “spiritual” experiences. But the second half of your post shows a serious state of self pity. Just look at what word is used by you several times in each of your sentences. I, I, I and I… Self pity won’t get you anywhere. Self pity makes problems worse and leads to suicidal thoughts.
Wow, Krisz. Your post demonstrates a deep lack of compassion for what chris shared. Compassion is key to any attempt to gain enlightenment and necessary for people who experience the horrifying and scary effects of depersonalization. While I don’t have the space to say much right now I do want you to know chris that I understand where you are coming from. Perhaps you can seek a spiritual teacher who can work one on one with you, and keep searching for other communities to join. Is there a Shambhala center near you? Also I would like to say thank you for being vulnerable.
I’m sorry to seem so insensitive. It was my experience I shared with you. Sometimes a clap in the face is needed to come back to the present moment.
Hi chris. This may help you a bit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bvVsBpfjfI
Here is my point of view, in case anyone is interested:
Both enlightenment and dp have thef eeling of the loss of self in common. The difference may indeed be the Interpretation, however in both cases it is an Interpretation of the mind. The General Problem i see in the debate about conciousness is that it is often misunderstood as the sense of self. As a depersonalized Person loses his sense of self, his mind frekas out, because ecerything that was once seen as meaningful is lost. the mind of an enlightened Person interprets it as pure bliss because all the fears are gone and there are no Problems anymore, even the fear of death is gone. However is the sense of self something very different from actual conciousness. Many scientists believe, that they can explain conciousness neurological, yet what they actually mean is the sense of self. As well is an enlightened Person convinced that he does not have a self anymore and that there is no self at all and just collective conciousness, which is in my eyes also a mistake. If the ego is an Illusion, what is illusioned? if there is no self, what is enlightened? even if it were the truth that all is one (which from a certain perspective obviously is), there would still have to be something seperate in order to experience this! In a state of deep Meditation or no thought there is the experience of no self, yet there has to be something experiencing it, and calling this “truth” is actually an Interpretation by the mind. I agree, that there is nothing more certain, than the “simple isness of the present Moment” (e. Tolle), yet there has to be a mind to acknowledge this, and this mind can perceive that it is seperate, like the eyes, if opened, can perceive that there is light. Yet all of this would be meaningless if there were no conciousness, if we were all like biological robots. However this Interpretation makes to me as Little sense as the idea of a collective conciousness. I hope to get some replies, peace to all!
For some reason U. G. Krishnamurti’s talks came to my mind after reading your post. You may want to check it out here: http://www.well.com/~jct/mystiq1.htm or on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nGM2NtiSsM and this is also very similar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utPict770gU
I do not agree with the idea that thought “invents” the idea of a self. I would rather say that through thought we are able to experience there there is obviuosly something strange in the universe/a self: we can go out and look at Things and see that they exist, yet through thinking we can have Access to the fact that as we see other persons, their eyes are probably also involved in a seeing-process by them, which leads to the conclusion, that what we see is also processed thorugh something similair (the eyes). As a result, there is something that can be seen, but not seen by us (our eyes) and we aree in a way seperated.
And yes, there are so called enlightenment-experiences in which a Person has no self awareness anymore through a reduction of thought activity or via disidentification through the creation of “meta-thoughts” (which in my Depersonalisation is the case most of the time). yet considering the thoughts as an Instrument to realise that there is a self, one could compare an enlightenment experiences to closing the eyes: the calim would be: there is no light, it is just an Illusion created by the eyes. so when i Close my eyes then there is no light to me anymore and i conclude that my Claim was right. when i open my eyes again i will certainly see light again, yet i will call it an Illusion.
I do not say that there is no Knowledge beyond rational thinking or that Meditation is not powerful to gain wisdom or experience extraordinary states of “conciousness”. I only see it as problematic to draw “rational”, commuicable conclusions from those states, because the instant, you have a thought about that state, it collapses, and anything that you might have to say about it becomes a mere speculation of the mind. For me, the only conclusion from all this is cogito ergo sum. whether this me is the same that has experienced, what i call my Memory is speculation, but in order to Claim anything to be true, one has to consider the own Memory as truth since there is no thought that arises from itself, but only always a chain of thoughts (in order to conclude, i Need to assume that my former assumptions are true), and any thought about thoughtlessness is also dependent on Memory, since thought and thoughtlessness cannot coexist at a time in the same mind. I know i am repeating a lot of what i have already said, but i just want to make my Point of view as clear as possible and put my experience is the most accurate form of words.
ive been experiencing something for the last year that i believe is dpdr. all i can really remember is that after a tramatizing life experience is that i started freaking out about everything, i went through this dark night for a few months. i remember that i was thinking that i was going nuts, and i was, i was full of emotions, but then i started to read about cbt, and Buddhism. i remember through the cbt work, and studying Buddhism i could overcome my mental illnesses, and to be honest it seemed to work really well. i started getting deeper and deeper into spiritual practices of all kinds, not just buddhism, and through these practices, i could throw myself into different states of mind. i remember one day i had a near death experience through practice, and i realized that infact i was not the self. i remember feeling really great after this conclusion. i remember i kept practicing, and helping others. i remember there being a day where i felt that i had finished all the spiritual work that i had to do, and that i was ready to leave the world all together. i remember myself leaving my body, i went through a tunnel, and when i woke up, i was in a new world. much like the world of duality, but everything i was experiencing had no form, shape to it. at first it was odd, but i remember after some time that i noticed that time didn’t exist, people didn’t exist, and neither did i, but i wasn’t scared, infact it was quite the opposit of that. very freeing, and very exciting, but i remember even those feelings didn’t have feeling, but all was feeling within itself. i would say that i found myself at home there. i remember seeing everything and everyone as one being of this higher being within itself. call it god, call it the universe, whatever you want to call it, to be honest it doesnt really matter the name or title of it. but i was seeing it as it truly was, is. im not really sure what happened after that, but all i know is that this body i saw in front of me, that i would saw was my spirit body started to freak out, and i was confused as to why, or what it was freaking out to, i remember feeling through the spirit body an invisible physical force hit me from behind like a mac truck. i would say thats what started making the body freak out, but for me, the mind, i was still, but the body kept on freaking out, i remember it saying fuck dharma, fuck god. as soon as this happened i remember i started to freak out, and i remember i had to grab my arm, and stop it, because it started to touch me in inepropriate ways. i needed it to stop. i remember this happening a few times, and then finally it stopped, but when it stopped i found myself back in my body, and back in a physical world. i remember that i felt this chill throughout my entire body that felt like my skin was torn off, even though it wasn’t. i remember the worst headache that seemed to be never ending. it felt and looked like it was going to explode. i remember my mind still precived everything in this state of no seperation for a while, but it wasn’t light, or heaven, but hell. the very bottom of hell. i was terified of myself and others. i remember that when i would touched objects that the very texture of them would freak me out, when i would hear music or watch anything like a movie, i wasn’t preceiving them from the heavenly state anymore, but from a hell state of a deeper reality. it isn’t as bad as it was, but now my experience is like seeing emptiness that isn’t fully empty. i try to go about my days not thinking about it, but its like it won’t leave me. i find myself dropping in and out of this real, unreal perseption, and it makes it almost impossible to do anything at all. i still feel foreign to my body, in my body, and when im with or around people, or doing just about anything is this constant experience of not being real. i experience memories and thoughts, but its not like they are mine, but some other being’s thoughts, some other being’s life, some other being’s reality that doesn’t exist. its really shitty for lack of a better word, because i want to enjoy life. i want to enjoy the good times, the bad times, but its like im unable to because it all appears unreal to me. i can’t tell if im alive or dead, neither or both. i just feel so stuck in this mental prison, banging on the walls, trying to escape. i find myself doing and saying odd things at times, not really aware of what i am saying or doing, but always having this feeling that they are off. i find people looking at me at times like wtf? i tried getting back to working a job for a while, but i had to quit because i would find myself constantly zoned out, and struggling to preform even the simplest of tasks. i feel like i get myself into situations that may not only be unwise legally, but unwise spiritually as well because i feel trapped in this space in my mind where i cant fully see what is going on, or know where i am. hopefully i am not detering anyone from finding themselves spiritually. honestly that is the very last thing i want to happen. and i do not think this experience will happen for everyone, but it just so happens to be the experience that i am facing at the moment. im simple a lost and confused soul trying to find himself again from anyone who might have had an experience similar to mine, and might understand what i am going through, and who may have overcome this experience i am having now, and would be able to help guide me out of it. whoever this me may be. thank you for this opportunity to express myself on this site, and best of wishes to anyone going through rough times. deep down although everything appears unreal, i just want you to know i love all of you, and hope to come back to you in a better state of mind and manner.
The only problem is that you grasp on your desires and do not really understand the reality of desire itself. Your mind wasn’t ready to the Truth and wants to go back to the old usual world, but once you have a glimpse you can’t really go back. I suggest that you read some books of David Hawkins or study Buddhist theory on the non-self.
Don’t be attached to life, that is the point…
Resistance is hell, Surrender is heaven.
Maybe this can be of help: https://www.eckharttollenow.com/new-home-video/?shortcode=u4cp8d
The underlying negativity you feel all the time when having DP is what Eckhart calls the pain body. If you don’t know that (and most people don’t – just like Misong pointed out) you may feel that something is wrong whit you. And this strengthens the pain body even more. The only way out is surrender / acceptance. All the best.
I just wanted to mention that it is extremely cathartic to just write about my feelings which I try to do in my journal. I think I am getting in touch with decades of repressed anger and developing compassion for myself and others, in particular my family.
Please take my comments down. I was just venting and now really don’t want it up. Thanks.
I took them down as soon as i got your email. Try reloading the page on your browser since they might be showing up from the cache there. It doesn’t mean anyone else will see them, just that they’re stored on your device.