(addendum: If you find the tone of this post puts you off try reading through to the comments for some resolution. Some good folks have been introspecting and kindly shared.)
In comments recently:
linda said:
very nice blog — I also blog on Buddhism + yoga
NellaLou said:
If you think my blog is “very nice” you ought to read it a little more carefully. I was going to delete your comment as comment spam since you are really only advertising your own blog here but instead I feel like coming out with a few words for you linda and others who wish to use this space which I maintain as a free bulletin board for your own indulgences.
If you are not interested to actually read the things here GO AWAY! DON’T COMMENT! DON’T ADVERTISE! JUST GO AWAY!
As for my opinion about yoga and Buddhism-well I haven’t one since yoga is not my thing and is almost never mentioned in this blog. Yoga and Buddhism are two different systems. (you would know about Patanjali and so on I’m sure or maybe Seane Corne hasn’t put that in her latest video) The commercial yoga empires of the United States are not anything I have any interest in whatsoever.
I run into so many “Yoga people” and their “Buddhisty” blather that I’m fed up with it. Yeah I checked your blog too. I’m sure you have an audience for that kind of thing but it ain’t here.
Be careful where you comment sometimes.
Yoga is not Buddhism.
Now some folks might think my response is a little harsh. After all linda is only leaving a comment on an old blog post. What’s the harm in that? NellaLou is “over-reacting” to a few words. Well…NO! Hell…NO!
First point is I did not go to linda’s blog and invite her comment. I acknowledge that I do put this blog out there for valid comments on the content and I take what I get and roll with it as well as I can. Even if I disagree with a commenter I try to do so in a manner that is respectful of their humanity, work involved in making a comment and to their words. I (hopefully) am never so dismissive as to say “nice comment – now here’s my shit” so as to invalidate the other completely.
Next point is this isn’t Craig’s list-advertise your blog there.
Another point (Ohh feeling a little prickly today!) is that comment spam however well disguised is still that. It is just rude. Not something one would imagine coming from a “yoga facilitator”, Taurus-moon cusping whatever, hippie chick, yada yada yada. But then again a blog so full of ego-wanking self-worship and adoring quotes from fans might belie the actual state of mind of it’s writer. There’s a blog review for you to put up! You quote Emma Goldman and that’s what you get!
The past while I’ve been contemplating the tone of this blog. It’s seeping into the insipid sometimes. And that seems to invite all kinds of lame wankers to comment and even send me email (Will you help me find peace/a place to stay/a teacher/etc. when I come to India? I’m not running a travel service, guru matching agency or anything else. ) This writer is not one of those mushy love and light types who’s going to smile at you while grinding her teeth. That’s bullshit. There’s way too much of that kind of bullshit in the world as it is.
The objective is not to insult people but to get real with stuff. And I’m getting as real as I can with myself here as well as anyone who cares to read this stuff. And my gratitude to those who choose to do that. But to those who don’t bother and then EXPECT something (anything) here can go and ego-wank elsewhere.
If all that seems harsh here’s a few things that I’ve also encountered in the past week that might be of interest. In the Shambhala Sun issue March 2009 there were two articles that had points that really struck me.
First Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche while talking about cultivating certain qualities of mind in our daily path talked of gentleness. But at some point that can be taken too far. He said:
If we become too gentle, however, we might become feeble. So fearlessness comes next.
While he was discussing one’s relation with mind it is also in the context of engagement with our lives. We can sit meekly by and all manner of things can occur while we smile idiotically but what’s the point of that. Might as well go for a lobotomy. My mother, while not a real activist sort of person used to say that one can’t spend their lives being a milquetoast or everyone will walk all over you. I love that word milquetoast. And my father spent some time with the Canadian army (a sergeant!) so milquetoast he isn’t either.
In that same magazine issue Barry Boyce wrote:
…if our reluctance leads us to imagine that we can foster an enlightened world free of boundaries and sharp edges, our Pollyannaish efforts are doomed to failure. A world where silent dogs have no teeth and roses have no thorns is a dream born of fear.
And even to go beyond that, one of my favorite quotes from Ven. Kobutsu Malone:
We don’t have to be subservient. We don’t have to practice love and light. We don’t have to go around handing out imaginary lotuses and telling each other that we’re buddhas-to-be. That’s horseshit. That’s watered-down Dharma for children. We’re not buddhas-to-be—the first thing the Buddha said when he awakened was, “Wonder of wonders, all beings are fundamentally awake.” They’re not going to be–they are.
Talking the straight goods is not a sin. It may be the only way people can wake up from that comfy cocoon reality is wrapped in. Keep killing that fucking cat Nansen til it ain’t gonna die no more! Or until somebody finally opens their mouth.*
*So Un-Buddhist-like! What is Nansen up to?
Nansen Kills a Cat [1]
Once the monks of the eastern and western Zen halls in Nansen’s temple were
quarrelling about a cat. As he saw this, Nansen held up the cat and said,
“You monks! If one of you can say a word, I will not slay the cat.”
No one could answer. Nansen cut the cat in two.
[1]: Cf. Case 14 in the Mumonkan.
**Nansen may have had something else in mind at the time but it’s a great illustration for the point!
Far be it from me to leave an adoring quote her, lest I look like a hippy-dippy, ego-wanking fan. But goddamn it I love this post. It completely revered the crappy mood I was in. Thank you for cutting the cat in two.
Glad you feel better now.
I bet you could provide a first rate guru matching service, NellaLou!
James I could do that. Anyone may send all their big bucks to the same address as all their furniture as I suggested in a previous post about High Beds. I will put all of it to good use in my new maharaja’s palace and spa. Coming soon to a mountain top near you! I will stock a few gurus there as well.
Actually, there’s a lot of overlap between yoga and Buddhism, despite the fact that they are two systems. And while I agree that there are a lot of way soft, heavy on the navel gaze types out there who haven’t dug into the depths of either tradition, I’m perplexed by the level of nastiness you send towards Linda and her post. Did she really intend to be dismissive by saying “nice blog”? Seems, if anything, she was trying to connect with you by saying she also blogs about similar topics.
If you wish to skewer me for the above statement, that’s fine. It’s not an issue to me. I’m all for straight talk, and cutting through the bullshit. But some of this strikes me as pure personalized attack, and I see that as a path to hatred and war, which is in no way reflective of Buddha’s teachings.
I say this with no ill will towards you. I have found your blog insightful, clear, and smart, and will probably continue to do so. Frankly, if I didn’t, I wouldn’t bother making this post.
Well Nathan I certainly would not skewer you. You at least took some time to read what was written, think about it and go through the comment process and I appreciate that.
The issue with linda (and some others who have done the same and I’ve just deleted those BTW) is that very recently another blog that is in my blogroll (which means I actually read it-yes I read them all!)here took note of their inclusion and made some comments about my blog which was fine. This other blog is apparently one that linda encountered (as it’s in her blogroll) and just wanted to jump on my little bandwagon here. Might have done with a little more effort on her part and this post would not have happened.
Had gone and read through quite a portion of linda’s blog and taken note of her tone, level of snark and self-involvement, posting in the sidebar of all manner of reader’s reviews and her self-descriptions (what I wrote was what she said of herself) I posted what was in my gut. Sometimes that happens.
Yoga and Buddhism-I have a friend who studies yoga in Chennai. Her and I have discussed the similarities and differences on many an occasion. I get what you’re saying about that.
Obviously you are not “ill-willing” me. None taken at all. I don’t dish it if I can’t swallow it myself criticism-wise.
Personal attack. Response to impersonal annihilation.
So many people (mostly selling penis enlarging potions and the like) drop blog comments (comment spam) like that. I get about a dozen a week in my spam trap. It’s very poor Netiquette (for those who remember that word from way back when). There was no other point to the comment.
Some people do come and leave a small comment like “nice” or “crap” or whatever. That’s fine. But when the majority of the words of a comment are about their shit and not about anything else then one can even statistically draw some conclusions.
As for a few nasty words on a blog starting a war Hmmm. I think you are trying to lecture me about Right Speech in a roundabout way. Hmmm. I am going to restrain my speech in responding to that Nathan. But is a thought or a gut level reaction any less than a word in the whole scheme of things? Am I lying to you if I hold something back? Do I say a word or not? Will it change the way I might respond to you if you choose to make a future comment? Will you have doubts about my sincerity? Can people trust one another if they are not really open even sometimes unpleasantly so?
That is all a very slippery slope Nathan.
I think you have a very nice blog too. (I am being ironic)
Nice post. I’m a character in Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy!
Arthur bring some fava beans and a nice Chianti with you to the barbeque! I’ll be in the kitchen washing the skewers.
NellaLou,
I agree – life can be messy and it’s foolish to assume everything is always going to be pleasant and nice. I sure as hell have had my share of unloading sessions, and said things that weren’t very thoughtful, so I can’t really be one to judge.
I completely understand the desire to limit those who are just jumping on the wagon, and really aren’t doing anything you are interested in. I’ve gotten a bit spam myself; seems to come with the territory. They just get deleted without comment from me.
You asked “Can people trust one another if they are not really open even sometimes unpleasantly so?” Well, I think it depends. If really open means expressing exactly what’s going on for them, even if in a messy way, then I would agree. Trust and that kind of openness are probably hand in hand.
But if really open is an opportunity to unload in whatever way suits you, forgetting that it’s another person you’re unloading on, then I disagree.
Honestly, reading over your post again, there was only one paragraph that got to me. “Another point (Ohh feeling a little prickly today!) is that comment spam however well disguised is still that. It is just rude. Not something one would imagine coming from a “yoga facilitator”, Taurus-moon cusping whatever, hippie chick, yada yada yada. But then again a blog so full of ego-wanking self-worship and adoring quotes from fans might belie the actual state of mind of it’s writer. There’s a blog review for you to put up! You quote Emma Goldman and that’s what you get!” Now, maybe if you said this to someone close to you, who knew you, there might be some positive effect. Maybe you’d get that person to look at their behavior. But to a total stranger, on a flat medium like the internet with no face to face body language or anything – how could it be taken in any other way than as personal attack?
Maybe that was your intent, to blow through the egos of these folks, I guess I don’t know. But I wouldn’t be surprised if someone like Linda either blew off your comment, or took personal offense to it, but ultimately didn’t change how she goes about things. And wasn’t it part of your intent to get these folks to change their behavior – i.e. stop commenting and advertising, maybe even take a look at how they present themselves? I’m willing to admit that I’m just guessing on this.
My point with all this is that those old guys like Nansen definitely didn’t play around, and definitely could be very blunt with their message. But I believe they did so out of deep caring for their students, with a deep wish to see those students wake up.
Do you wish for Linda to truly wake up, or do you wish for her to just go away?
What linda does is up to her.
I am not out to social engineer. It was after reading a whole bunch of her blog that I wrote that. She advertises both her snark and her sarcasm on every page using those very words. She is very proud of that aspect of her character. Her comment left is on the Habits 4 post here (3 posts back I think)and the link to her blog is intact in her name so you (or anyone) can check it for yourselves.
I’m no Nansen or Hakuin or any of those guys by any means. And I’m not perfect nor will I try to present that kind of front. I do think about what I say and how I say it very deeply and also seriously consider my intention.
Part of my issue is with censorship. If I, as a writer, spend a good portion of my time second guessing everything I say as to it’s appropriateness Buddhist-wise that would be a very long silent retreat.
People will never stop commenting or doing whatever they want here or elsewhere. And if I have a reaction to it that I choose to make public that can happen too. Lots of things can happen that don’t follow the “rules” that people think should be followed.
Sure it was a personal attack. I think I addressed that before. If you think it was a cheap shot, maybe so. It seems to be eating at you somehow. I think you want to defend the lindas of the world. I respect that.
Maybe you think I am not a “proper” Buddhist or behave in a “properly” Buddhist manner. Sometimes I don’t and I have to live with those consequences. As does everyone each with their own fruits of karma.
And on trust there is openness and a sort of diplomatic openness and then there’s self-censorship. It’s hard to trust if it feels like the other is hiding or repressing things, but it is also hard to trust of the other is just randomly venting vileness without regard for anyone. Perhaps you feel I am guilty of the latter. In some people’s views that may be true.
But the bigger point to all this is that there are people who are so self absorbed that they see nothing wrong with just walking into my shop and hammering up a sign advertising their shop without even noticing someone standing behind the counter. It is the dismissiveness that gets to me.
This dismissiveness is the kind of thing that prompted colonialism, torture and slavery in it’s most overt form and is a good part of what lies behind things like sexism, racism and the like. The disregard, except in the most perfunctory manner of the other is as dangerous if not moreso than outright hostility. It is a creeping sort of denial of the humanity of another.
So yes personal attack it seems to some extent acknowledges that there is actually a person there and maybe I wanted to hurt their feelings a little bit. Not nice but also not a lie.
But as I said linda will do whatever she wants. That’s up to her. She can ignore me, tell me to fuck off, write in her blog, wake up, fall asleep, anything. As I said however she chooses to respond to stuff in her world is not in my control nor would I wish it to be.
I am not the boss of anyone.
Well, you’re right – I guess I’m a little tired of the personal attack route that fills this world with anger and suffering. It does get under my skin – and mostly, because it’s unnecessary.
I took a look at Linda’s blog, and you’re dead on – lots of arrogant and self-absorbed statements. I’m not interested in defending her writing, or what she is presenting or maybe representing – only to remember that we are all interconnected, and as such, to deliberately injure her for no good reason, means to deliberately injure myself.
I really disliked former U.S. President George Bush and his Administration’s policies. I publicly demonstrated against their decisions, wrote letters, got into heated discussions with supporters of their work, etc. But at some point, I began to realize how easy it was to turn him and Cheney and the rest into demons, and to just piss all over them to feel better for a bit. And the thing is, that is exactly what most of were so upset about when it came the Administration’s policies. Their demonization of nearly everyone and everything that disagreed with their policies. And that demonization, which began in the minds those handful of leaders, lead to a lot of suffering and a fair amount of death in the world. So, seeing as I wanted that to end, it ceased to make sense to stoop to their level and attack them the way they attacked everyone they chose to make into enemies.
I’m the last person to suggest censorship when it comes to opinions and ideas, even one’s I don’t like. And by no means do I expect you to second guess what you write, just because I’m commenting on this particular comment.
I also agree that you, nor I, are the boss of anyone else. We can’t be. But I personally don’t think any of us in the blogging world, especially if we’re talking about “weighty” subjects like Buddhism, can claim to not want to influence others at all. I know I’d like my posts to make people think a bit, if nothing else. If they don’t, that’s ok too, but I blog because I think maybe they will.
I don’t believe there is such a thing as a “proper” or “not proper” Buddhist. There’s only people doing various practices and attempting to apply various teachings in various ways. I, too, don’t always follow the “rules.” Buddha said to experiment and experience the teachings, and see for yourself if they are true, so I try to do that.
I’m not Nansen or Hakuin, or any of those guys either. Even if I were “as awake” as they seemed to be, I still could only be who I am in the world today. I make mistakes, I overreact sometimes. Maybe I did here, in terms of your comments about Linda.
But just as you appear to be tired of the dismissiveness that gets bandied about by people who are so self-focused that they feel entitled to do whatever they want, I am tired of personal attacks that do nothing but increase the level of suffering in the world. I’d like to think we’re both pointing at a similar issue – that is, the failure to recognize and respect others in the world.
It seems like you have taken on a suffering that is neither yours nor even acknowledged by linda. You have manufactured your own suffering by attaching to my words. And it appears that your anger at the “unnecessary” is in part at least reflective of your own state of frustration with the ineffectiveness of some past actions. I too disliked George Bush and his cronies. And I too have been very involved in activist politics for many years. How we choose to engage our ethical principles in a social setting is a delicate task. There are times when the feeling is one of not having done enough. There are also times where one can and does step over the line.
If I have stepped over the line and linda wishes to engage in dialogue with me on that issue I would certainly accept. And I would continue until a mutual resolution were found. That is, as far as I am concerned the only way to settle these kinds of conflicts. But linda has not expressed anything about the issue. Likely she has not revisited this blog again. So should I go to her blog and leave a comment letting her know I wrote some negative and possibly personal criticism of her and demand that she suffer it and react? I’m not going to do that.
I too get discouraged by all the “unnecessary” in this world. But “unnecessary” is both a value judgment and a label that is made by the self and placed on other things in a dual sense well after the fact of the matter. Most of what happens in life is “unnecessary”. That is samsara.
What we are enmeshed in is exactly that interconnectedness of everything and the karmic action and its results. Who started what is impossible to determine. Was it linda’s comment that started things or did something precede that? We would have to consider all the elements of how her character, my character and your character were formed, the history of the internet and blogging and so forth. It is unending.
I can go back, delete this post and all subsequent discussions but that would not change anything. That we are having a dialogue on this is important. Maybe a little for you and me and linda but also for anyone who stumbles upon this and is facing similar dilemmas.
The kinds of dilemmas I am talking about do relate to respect, compassion, recognition of others, censorship, enabling, passivity, anger, self-reflection, attachment, control, suffering, and many more.
These are the big koans of life.
The kinds of questions even a snarky blog post brings up can be very deep and very much relate to an individual’s sense of ethics especially within the Buddhist framework.
Here are just some of the questions that come to mind:
What is the difference between how I am reacting and how I think I “should” react?
If I am passive and allow some things to just pass by am I enabling those things with which I actually disagree?
Is anger ever justified?
Who is suffering? Have I contributed to that or have they manufactured that themselves and how much of each?
What is compassion and what is simply attaching to the perceived suffering of another?
Has linda been harmed by our discussion? She has become a little abstract at this point which I think is not such a good thing.Would she object to being used as a “symbol” in a discussion such as this? We have no way of knowing. It is dismissive in a fashion also. There are many complications here. As there are when any situation is examined with some thoroughness. The unraveling of causes and effects is difficult.
How will my audience receive this? (I have no way of knowing that.)
So Nathan we’ve got a situation that can escalate in a very negative way or can de-escalate into some positive fruit that may be informative if not helpful to some other people. That we are discussing it in a civil fashion is an opening to resolution. And that we are both willing to attempt to understand and acknowledge each other’s viewpoint bodes well. Entrenchment in positions is what leads to escalation of conflict. And ultimately there is no absolute wrong or right in any situation.
I really appreciate your honesty and forthrightness in your comments. It has given me a little pause to consider more fully some of the things I write. It may not change what I write but then again it may provide pause in the future as well.
This dialogue has given me personally a lot of things to consider and no doubt they will show up on future blog posts. So thank you for that.
And actually thanks to linda for however inadvertently sparking some critical self examination among those who have chosen to meet at this cyberspace intersection.
I definitely agree with you that when things get messy, there is an opportunity to really examine deeper values and issues. As far as my reaction goes, I’m not manufacturing anything. I actually got over the initial irritation rather quickly, but felt that it was important to say something. I Think I have done this two or three other times, when I felt maybe a dialogue could happen as a result. Most of the time, it’s clear a dialogue probably won’t happen, so I don’t bother making a comment.
I appreciate that you have seen that I have done my best to be thoughtful with my words, to respond to what you say specifically, and that I have carefully looked over what you have written.
Leaving all this up might be a help to others, at the very least to show that people don’t have to drive down the rabbit hole of nastiness when disagreements and confusions come up.
Yes, “unnecessary” is a value judgement on my part, and a way to cut things in half so to speak. It’s hard not to cut in half with language – is it even really possible? Isn’t it always at it’s best just moon pointing?
As for compassion, I think it’s always contextual. Sometimes it looks soft, sometimes hard, sometimes it looks like nothing at all. Was I overly concerned about Linda’s possible reaction to your comments? Maybe. What it brought on was a more general sense that in traveling around these blogs, it’s sometimes surprising how much nastiness and petty fighting is going on. And this, between supposedly spiritual people. At the end of the day, it’s just a reminder that no matter where you are, or who is involved, samsara can be very alive and well.
This issue of passivity is a big one too. I have spent years paying attention to it’s appearance in my own life, and in those around me. The one thing I have learned is it’s very easy to just fall over and be a door mat for awhile. But then eventually, you get tired of that and usually flip over to the other extreme of wild anger, bitterness, and lashing out at others. It’s much more challenging to live at the intersection of passivity and activity in such a way that you can be forceful in a situation calling for forcefulness, but do so without creating a pile of damage. I have seen it done before, I maybe even have do so myself, so I know it’s possible.
Thank you Nathan.
wow. one “nice blog” comment conjures up discussion about George Bush and colonialism and slavery. it boggles the mind. by the way, “nice blog” means “nice blog”, nothing more, nothing less. all the yada yada about my motives and about me personally (and yes, that does fall under Right Speech and ahimsa for that matter. satya, too) over my leaving a simple comment like “nice blog” made me blow my chai tea out my nose all over the keyboard.
actually, if you really read my snarky and self-absorbed posts, you would know that I’ve never said anywhere that yoga IS Buddhism as you imply, although Buddha was a yogi. I HAVE said that yoga and Buddhism are the twins who were separated at birth (so to speak)…which was a quote from my last retreat that was part of an 18 month training at Spirit Rock Meditation Center…http://www.spiritrock.org/display.asp?pageid=376&catid=2 : Mindfulness Yoga and Meditation Training, taught by some of the leading teachers in the yoga and western Buddhism worlds (Jack Kornfield being one of them.) if you have an argument about the yoking of Buddhism and classical yoga, I suggest that you take it up with Phillip Moffitt and Anne Cushman who designed this training.
You will notice that the latest issue of the Shambhala Sun is about “Mindful Yoga” (and they also do an annual yoga and Buddhism issue) with one of my teachers on the cover, Sarah Powers, who also teaches yoga with a Buddhist perspective.
Your vitriol over a simple statement — nice blog + I write about Buddhism and yoga too — is amazing to me (and a little scary!) I’m not going to comment about anything you’ve said about me personally because I just chalk that up to your avidya.
in any event, it’s nice to know that a simple comment of mine led to such a heated discussion — but I guess that’s just because I’m so self-absorbed that to read your discussion just rocked my boat! yee-ha! yeah, I’m snarky (which many of my long-time readers appreciate but can also see through), but at least my teacher (a Theravadan Sri Lankan monk) knows me well enough to have named me Sama.
धन्यवाद लिंडा
आप अच्छा दिन है